XPost: sci.psychology.psychotherapy, alt.consciousness, talk.origins   
   From: mightymartianca@hotmail.com   
      
   Raan wrote:   
   > "AC"  wrote in message   
   > news:2pedu1Fjo0cjU1@uni-berlin.de...   
   >   
   >>Nick Keighley wrote:   
   >>   
   >>>"Raan"  wrote in message   
   >   
   > news:...   
   >   
   >>>>"Nick Keighley"  wrote in message   
   >>>>news:aed14a74.0408281538.2cf45017@posting.google.com...   
   >>>>   
   >>>>   
   >>>>>"Raan"  wrote in message   
   >>>>>news:...   
   >>>   
   >>>   
   >>>>>>Never before have our challenges been so great.  Never has your   
   >   
   > support   
   >   
   >>>>>>been so important.   
   >>>>>>   
   >>>>>>Secular humanism offers an alternative to dogmatism.   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>>the trouble is, posts like yours lead us to believe that "secular   
   >>>>   
   >>>>humanism"   
   >>>>   
   >>>>   
   >>>>>*is* dogmatism.   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>   
   >>>>How do you figure that and why do I need to ask this since you could   
   >   
   > just as   
   >   
   >>>>well have explained yourself.   
   >>>   
   >>>   
   >>>I suspect since you have to ask that you won't agree. Your original post   
   >>>sounds like preaching. You even ask for money at the end!   
   >>>   
   >>>You try to conflate "science and reason" with "secularism and humanism".   
   >>>   
   >>>I find the statement "Much of the progress of the twentieth century can   
   >   
   > be   
   >   
   >>>directly attributed to the rise of secularism and humanism" contentious.   
   >>   
   >>I'd say a growing secularism has had a lot to do with increasing   
   >>tolerance.  As to the humanism claim, well, frankly, I don't think it's   
   >>even a blip on the radar.   
   >>   
   >>One must note that this individual, like his theistic counterparts of   
   >>similar mood, appears to equate secularism with atheism.  There are   
   >>plenty of people of faith who are secularists, because they know it's   
   >>the only way to preserve religious liberties for all (themselves   
   >   
   > included).   
   >   
   >>For myself, I have no time for secular humanist clubs, even if they give   
   >>out neat beanies.  My primary interest is simply to have people worry a   
   >>lot less about what their fellow humans believe or don't believe.   
   >>   
   >>   
   >>>I'm left wondering if you had religious upbringing.   
   >>   
   >>My suspicion also.   
   >   
   >   
   > My post was clearly a quotation of a letter written by another.   
      
   Then that observation sits with him, though judging by the rest of your   
   post, it would seem that you have similar leanings yourself.  Were you   
   always a secular humanist?   
      
   >   
   > The equal rights of individuals and the ideal of reason and rationality   
   > based on this real world we all live in, have both been of such far reaching   
   > influence that the powers and freedoms we enjoy today as common individuals   
   > in most of this free society, surpass even that of kings as little as two   
   > centuries ago.   
      
   I know theists who have no problems whatsoever with freedoms.  At least   
   some great reformers, like Gladstone, seem to have been driven by their   
   religious beliefs.  Perhaps the world isn't quite so black and white as   
   either side would like to claim.   
      
    > There is nothing dogmatic or religious about these facts   
   > much as you might want to think so.   
      
   It is attempt to seize secularism and fashion it as an atheistic   
   creation which I find disturbing.  As an atheist, I know full well that   
   secularism isn't reserved merely for the a-religious, but is a concept   
   that is shared by many religious people as well.  A number of the   
   framers of such wonderous secular documents as the US Constitution were   
   deists, and yet they seemed to have a pretty damn good handle on secularism.   
      
   > The only faith  that secular humanism   
   > requires is the faith in one's own reason such as we have faith in our   
   > ability to walk.  Yet so many stumble and trip and fall repeatedly and then   
   > claim it was God's will or blame the enemy lol.   
      
   I have no reason to slur the religious, and I'm afraid your slurs and   
   oversimplifications and generalizations rather indicate that you share   
   that intolerance that some theists do.   
      
   Get over it, pal.  The world's a big place, and pissing on the other   
   parade isn't going to make it better.  You're part of the problem, not   
   part of the solution.  Right-minded people, theistic or atheistic,   
   should not desire to mock the other man's point of view, but rather   
   accept his right to have his faith or lack of faith, so that everyone   
   can wake up in the morning, pray or not pray, go to work, be productive   
   members of society, go home, go to church or not go to church, so that   
   they can wake up the next morning and do it all over again.  Show a   
   little respect.   
      
   This sort of idiotic humanist evangelism is as pathetic and   
   disrespectful and theistic evangelism.  If I had the power to choose, I   
   wouldn't mind seeing all the evangelists of all stripes carted off to   
   some far off island and leave the rest of humanity to get on with   
   things.  You guys pick fights and then automatically assume those folks   
   you count on your side of the field are going to follow your rallying cry.   
      
   Well, you won't get me, atheistic secularist that I am.  I'm in the camp   
   of everyone believing what they want and letting the other guy believe   
   what they want.   
      
   --   
   Aaron Clausen   
   mightymartianca@hotmail.com   
      
   WOODY: How's it going Mr. Peterson?   
   NORM : It's a dog eat dog world out there, Woody, and I'm wearing   
           milkbone underwear.   
      
   --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05   
    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)