XPost: sci.psychology.psychotherapy, alt.consciousness, talk.origins   
   From: RaanOne@One.org   
      
   "AC"  wrote in message   
   news:2pfv4fFkcln9U1@uni-berlin.de...   
   > Raan wrote:   
   > > "AC"  wrote in message   
   > > news:2pes4oFkdmdcU1@uni-berlin.de...   
   > >   
   > >>Raan wrote:   
   > >>   
   > >>>"AC"  wrote in message   
   > >>>news:2pedu1Fjo0cjU1@uni-berlin.de...   
   > >>>   
   > >>>   
   > >>>>Nick Keighley wrote:   
   > >>>>   
   > >>>>   
   > >>>>>"Raan"  wrote in message   
   > >>>   
   > >>>news:...   
   > >>>   
   > >>>   
   > >>>>>>"Nick Keighley"  wrote in message   
   > >>>>>>news:aed14a74.0408281538.2cf45017@posting.google.com...   
   > >>>>>>   
   > >>>>>>   
   > >>>>>>   
   > >>>>>>>"Raan"  wrote in message   
   > >>>>>>>news:...   
   > >>>>>   
   > >>>>>   
   > >>>>>>>>Never before have our challenges been so great.  Never has your   
   > >>>   
   > >>>support   
   > >>>   
   > >>>   
   > >>>>>>>>been so important.   
   > >>>>>>>>   
   > >>>>>>>>Secular humanism offers an alternative to dogmatism.   
   > >>>>>>>   
   > >>>>>>>the trouble is, posts like yours lead us to believe that "secular   
   > >>>>>>   
   > >>>>>>humanism"   
   > >>>>>>   
   > >>>>>>   
   > >>>>>>   
   > >>>>>>>*is* dogmatism.   
   > >>>>>>>   
   > >>>>>>>   
   > >>>>>>   
   > >>>>>>How do you figure that and why do I need to ask this since you could   
   > >>>   
   > >>>just as   
   > >>>   
   > >>>   
   > >>>>>>well have explained yourself.   
   > >>>>>   
   > >>>>>   
   > >>>>>I suspect since you have to ask that you won't agree. Your original   
   > >   
   > > post   
   > >   
   > >>>>>sounds like preaching. You even ask for money at the end!   
   > >>>>>   
   > >>>>>You try to conflate "science and reason" with "secularism and   
   > >   
   > > humanism".   
   > >   
   > >>>>>I find the statement "Much of the progress of the twentieth century   
   can   
   > >>>   
   > >>>be   
   > >>>   
   > >>>   
   > >>>>>directly attributed to the rise of secularism and humanism"   
   > >   
   > > contentious.   
   > >   
   > >>>>I'd say a growing secularism has had a lot to do with increasing   
   > >>>>tolerance.  As to the humanism claim, well, frankly, I don't think   
   it's   
   > >>>>even a blip on the radar.   
   > >>>>   
   > >>>>One must note that this individual, like his theistic counterparts of   
   > >>>>similar mood, appears to equate secularism with atheism.  There are   
   > >>>>plenty of people of faith who are secularists, because they know it's   
   > >>>>the only way to preserve religious liberties for all (themselves   
   > >>>   
   > >>>included).   
   > >>>   
   > >>>   
   > >>>>For myself, I have no time for secular humanist clubs, even if they   
   give   
   > >>>>out neat beanies.  My primary interest is simply to have people worry   
   a   
   > >>>>lot less about what their fellow humans believe or don't believe.   
   > >>>>   
   > >>>>   
   > >>>>   
   > >>>>>I'm left wondering if you had religious upbringing.   
   > >>>>   
   > >>>>My suspicion also.   
   > >>>   
   > >>>   
   > >>>My post was clearly a quotation of a letter written by another.   
   > >>   
   > >>Then that observation sits with him, though judging by the rest of your   
   > >>post, it would seem that you have similar leanings yourself.  Were you   
   > >>always a secular humanist?   
   > >>   
   > >>   
   > >>>The equal rights of individuals and the ideal of reason and rationality   
   > >>>based on this real world we all live in, have both been of such far   
   > >   
   > > reaching   
   > >   
   > >>>influence that the powers and freedoms we enjoy today as common   
   > >   
   > > individuals   
   > >   
   > >>>in most of this free society, surpass even that of kings as little as   
   > >   
   > > two   
   > >   
   > >>>centuries ago.   
   > >>   
   > >>I know theists who have no problems whatsoever with freedoms.  At least   
   > >>some great reformers, like Gladstone, seem to have been driven by their   
   > >>religious beliefs.  Perhaps the world isn't quite so black and white as   
   > >>either side would like to claim.   
   > >>   
   > >> > There is nothing dogmatic or religious about these facts   
   > >>   
   > >>>much as you might want to think so.   
   > >>   
   > >>It is attempt to seize secularism and fashion it as an atheistic   
   > >>creation which I find disturbing.  As an atheist, I know full well that   
   > >>secularism isn't reserved merely for the a-religious, but is a concept   
   > >>that is shared by many religious people as well.  A number of the   
   > >>framers of such wonderous secular documents as the US Constitution were   
   > >>deists, and yet they seemed to have a pretty damn good handle on   
   > >   
   > > secularism.   
   > >   
   > >>>The only faith  that secular humanism   
   > >>>requires is the faith in one's own reason such as we have faith in our   
   > >>>ability to walk.  Yet so many stumble and trip and fall repeatedly and   
   > >   
   > > then   
   > >   
   > >>>claim it was God's will or blame the enemy lol.   
   > >>   
   > >>I have no reason to slur the religious, and I'm afraid your slurs and   
   > >>oversimplifications and generalizations rather indicate that you share   
   > >>that intolerance that some theists do.   
   > >>   
   > >>Get over it, pal.  The world's a big place, and pissing on the other   
   > >>parade isn't going to make it better.  You're part of the problem, not   
   > >>part of the solution.  Right-minded people, theistic or atheistic,   
   > >>should not desire to mock the other man's point of view, but rather   
   > >>accept his right to have his faith or lack of faith, so that everyone   
   > >>can wake up in the morning, pray or not pray, go to work, be productive   
   > >>members of society, go home, go to church or not go to church, so that   
   > >>they can wake up the next morning and do it all over again.  Show a   
   > >>little respect.   
   > >>   
   > >>This sort of idiotic humanist evangelism is as pathetic and   
   > >>disrespectful and theistic evangelism.  If I had the power to choose, I   
   > >>wouldn't mind seeing all the evangelists of all stripes carted off to   
   > >>some far off island and leave the rest of humanity to get on with   
   > >>things.  You guys pick fights and then automatically assume those folks   
   > >>you count on your side of the field are going to follow your rallying   
   cry.   
   > >>   
   > >>Well, you won't get me, atheistic secularist that I am.  I'm in the camp   
   > >>of everyone believing what they want and letting the other guy believe   
   > >>what they want.   
   > >   
   > >   
   > > My view is that belief is not even to be tolerated let alone respected   
   but   
   > > to be reviled and avoided as with an illness, and those so afflicted   
   pitied   
   > > and if possible, treated.  Belief is the root cause of all suffering.   
   Look   
   > > into it.   
   >   
   > I'm well aware of your view.  It's bigotry, pure and simple.  It is the   
   > same mentality that allows some theist to come along and say atheists   
   > are immoral.   
      
   Bigotry?   
   Hardly since the bigot is biased against particular bekliefs while   
      
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