XPost: sci.psychology.psychotherapy, alt.consciousness, talk.origins   
   From: mightymartianca@hotmail.com   
      
   On Mon, 30 Aug 2004 14:35:42 +0000 (UTC),   
   Raan  wrote:   
   >   
   > "AC"  wrote in message   
   > news:2pfv4fFkcln9U1@uni-berlin.de...   
   >> Raan wrote:   
   >> > "AC"  wrote in message   
   >> > news:2pes4oFkdmdcU1@uni-berlin.de...   
   >> >   
   >> >>Raan wrote:   
   >> >>   
   >> >>>"AC"  wrote in message   
   >> >>>news:2pedu1Fjo0cjU1@uni-berlin.de...   
   >> >>>   
   >> >>>   
   >> >>>>Nick Keighley wrote:   
   >> >>>>   
   >> >>>>   
   >> >>>>>"Raan"  wrote in message   
   >> >>>   
   >> >>>news:...   
   >> >>>   
   >> >>>   
   >> >>>>>>"Nick Keighley"  wrote in message   
   >> >>>>>>news:aed14a74.0408281538.2cf45017@posting.google.com...   
   >> >>>>>>   
   >> >>>>>>   
   >> >>>>>>   
   >> >>>>>>>"Raan"  wrote in message   
   >> >>>>>>>news:...   
   >> >>>>>   
   >> >>>>>   
   >> >>>>>>>>Never before have our challenges been so great.  Never has your   
   >> >>>   
   >> >>>support   
   >> >>>   
   >> >>>   
   >> >>>>>>>>been so important.   
   >> >>>>>>>>   
   >> >>>>>>>>Secular humanism offers an alternative to dogmatism.   
   >> >>>>>>>   
   >> >>>>>>>the trouble is, posts like yours lead us to believe that "secular   
   >> >>>>>>   
   >> >>>>>>humanism"   
   >> >>>>>>   
   >> >>>>>>   
   >> >>>>>>   
   >> >>>>>>>*is* dogmatism.   
   >> >>>>>>>   
   >> >>>>>>>   
   >> >>>>>>   
   >> >>>>>>How do you figure that and why do I need to ask this since you could   
   >> >>>   
   >> >>>just as   
   >> >>>   
   >> >>>   
   >> >>>>>>well have explained yourself.   
   >> >>>>>   
   >> >>>>>   
   >> >>>>>I suspect since you have to ask that you won't agree. Your original   
   >> >   
   >> > post   
   >> >   
   >> >>>>>sounds like preaching. You even ask for money at the end!   
   >> >>>>>   
   >> >>>>>You try to conflate "science and reason" with "secularism and   
   >> >   
   >> > humanism".   
   >> >   
   >> >>>>>I find the statement "Much of the progress of the twentieth century   
   > can   
   >> >>>   
   >> >>>be   
   >> >>>   
   >> >>>   
   >> >>>>>directly attributed to the rise of secularism and humanism"   
   >> >   
   >> > contentious.   
   >> >   
   >> >>>>I'd say a growing secularism has had a lot to do with increasing   
   >> >>>>tolerance.  As to the humanism claim, well, frankly, I don't think   
   > it's   
   >> >>>>even a blip on the radar.   
   >> >>>>   
   >> >>>>One must note that this individual, like his theistic counterparts of   
   >> >>>>similar mood, appears to equate secularism with atheism.  There are   
   >> >>>>plenty of people of faith who are secularists, because they know it's   
   >> >>>>the only way to preserve religious liberties for all (themselves   
   >> >>>   
   >> >>>included).   
   >> >>>   
   >> >>>   
   >> >>>>For myself, I have no time for secular humanist clubs, even if they   
   > give   
   >> >>>>out neat beanies.  My primary interest is simply to have people worry   
   > a   
   >> >>>>lot less about what their fellow humans believe or don't believe.   
   >> >>>>   
   >> >>>>   
   >> >>>>   
   >> >>>>>I'm left wondering if you had religious upbringing.   
   >> >>>>   
   >> >>>>My suspicion also.   
   >> >>>   
   >> >>>   
   >> >>>My post was clearly a quotation of a letter written by another.   
   >> >>   
   >> >>Then that observation sits with him, though judging by the rest of your   
   >> >>post, it would seem that you have similar leanings yourself.  Were you   
   >> >>always a secular humanist?   
   >> >>   
   >> >>   
   >> >>>The equal rights of individuals and the ideal of reason and rationality   
   >> >>>based on this real world we all live in, have both been of such far   
   >> >   
   >> > reaching   
   >> >   
   >> >>>influence that the powers and freedoms we enjoy today as common   
   >> >   
   >> > individuals   
   >> >   
   >> >>>in most of this free society, surpass even that of kings as little as   
   >> >   
   >> > two   
   >> >   
   >> >>>centuries ago.   
   >> >>   
   >> >>I know theists who have no problems whatsoever with freedoms.  At least   
   >> >>some great reformers, like Gladstone, seem to have been driven by their   
   >> >>religious beliefs.  Perhaps the world isn't quite so black and white as   
   >> >>either side would like to claim.   
   >> >>   
   >> >> > There is nothing dogmatic or religious about these facts   
   >> >>   
   >> >>>much as you might want to think so.   
   >> >>   
   >> >>It is attempt to seize secularism and fashion it as an atheistic   
   >> >>creation which I find disturbing.  As an atheist, I know full well that   
   >> >>secularism isn't reserved merely for the a-religious, but is a concept   
   >> >>that is shared by many religious people as well.  A number of the   
   >> >>framers of such wonderous secular documents as the US Constitution were   
   >> >>deists, and yet they seemed to have a pretty damn good handle on   
   >> >   
   >> > secularism.   
   >> >   
   >> >>>The only faith  that secular humanism   
   >> >>>requires is the faith in one's own reason such as we have faith in our   
   >> >>>ability to walk.  Yet so many stumble and trip and fall repeatedly and   
   >> >   
   >> > then   
   >> >   
   >> >>>claim it was God's will or blame the enemy lol.   
   >> >>   
   >> >>I have no reason to slur the religious, and I'm afraid your slurs and   
   >> >>oversimplifications and generalizations rather indicate that you share   
   >> >>that intolerance that some theists do.   
   >> >>   
   >> >>Get over it, pal.  The world's a big place, and pissing on the other   
   >> >>parade isn't going to make it better.  You're part of the problem, not   
   >> >>part of the solution.  Right-minded people, theistic or atheistic,   
   >> >>should not desire to mock the other man's point of view, but rather   
   >> >>accept his right to have his faith or lack of faith, so that everyone   
   >> >>can wake up in the morning, pray or not pray, go to work, be productive   
   >> >>members of society, go home, go to church or not go to church, so that   
   >> >>they can wake up the next morning and do it all over again.  Show a   
   >> >>little respect.   
   >> >>   
   >> >>This sort of idiotic humanist evangelism is as pathetic and   
   >> >>disrespectful and theistic evangelism.  If I had the power to choose, I   
   >> >>wouldn't mind seeing all the evangelists of all stripes carted off to   
   >> >>some far off island and leave the rest of humanity to get on with   
   >> >>things.  You guys pick fights and then automatically assume those folks   
   >> >>you count on your side of the field are going to follow your rallying   
   > cry.   
   >> >>   
   >> >>Well, you won't get me, atheistic secularist that I am.  I'm in the camp   
   >> >>of everyone believing what they want and letting the other guy believe   
   >> >>what they want.   
   >> >   
   >> >   
   >> > My view is that belief is not even to be tolerated let alone respected   
   > but   
   >> > to be reviled and avoided as with an illness, and those so afflicted   
   > pitied   
   >> > and if possible, treated.  Belief is the root cause of all suffering.   
   > Look   
   >> > into it.   
   >>   
   >> I'm well aware of your view.  It's bigotry, pure and simple.  It is the   
   >> same mentality that allows some theist to come along and say atheists   
   >> are immoral.   
   >   
   > Bigotry?   
      
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