XPost: sci.psychology.psychotherapy, alt.consciousness, talk.origins   
   From: RaanOne@One.org   
      
   "Giant Sloth"  wrote in message   
   news:6b1053df.0409062158.2d486775@posting.google.com...   
   > "Raan"  wrote in message   
   news:...   
   > > "AC"  wrote in message   
   > > news:2pfv4fFkcln9U1@uni-berlin.de...   
   > > > Raan wrote:   
   > > > > "AC"  wrote in message   
   > > > > news:2pes4oFkdmdcU1@uni-berlin.de...   
   > > > >   
   > > > >>Raan wrote:   
   > > > >>   
   > > > >>>"AC"  wrote in message   
   > > > >>>news:2pedu1Fjo0cjU1@uni-berlin.de...   
   > > > >>>   
   > > > >>>   
   > > > >>>>Nick Keighley wrote:   
   > > > >>>>   
   > > > >>>>   
   > > > >>>>>"Raan"  wrote in message   
   > > > >>>   
   > > > >>>news:...   
   > > > >>>   
   > > > >>>   
   > > > >>>>>>"Nick Keighley"  wrote in   
   message   
   > > > >>>>>>news:aed14a74.0408281538.2cf45017@posting.google.com...   
   > > > >>>>>>   
   > > > >>>>>>   
   > > > >>>>>>   
   > > > >>>>>>>"Raan"  wrote in message   
   > > > >>>>>>>news:...   
   > > > >>>>>   
   > > > >>>>>   
   > > > >>>>>>>>Never before have our challenges been so great.  Never has   
   your   
   > > > >>>   
   > > > >>>support   
   > > > >>>   
   > > > >>>   
   > > > >>>>>>>>been so important.   
   > > > >>>>>>>>   
   > > > >>>>>>>>Secular humanism offers an alternative to dogmatism.   
   > > > >>>>>>>   
   > > > >>>>>>>the trouble is, posts like yours lead us to believe that   
   "secular   
   > > > >>>>>>   
   > > > >>>>>>humanism"   
   > > > >>>>>>   
   > > > >>>>>>   
   > > > >>>>>>   
   > > > >>>>>>>*is* dogmatism.   
   > > > >>>>>>>   
   > > > >>>>>>>   
   > > > >>>>>>   
   > > > >>>>>>How do you figure that and why do I need to ask this since you   
   could   
   > > > >>>   
   > > > >>>just as   
   > > > >>>   
   > > > >>>   
   > > > >>>>>>well have explained yourself.   
   > > > >>>>>   
   > > > >>>>>   
   > > > >>>>>I suspect since you have to ask that you won't agree. Your   
   original   
   > > > >   
   > > > > post   
   > > > >   
   > > > >>>>>sounds like preaching. You even ask for money at the end!   
   > > > >>>>>   
   > > > >>>>>You try to conflate "science and reason" with "secularism and   
   > > > >   
   > > > > humanism".   
   > > > >   
   > > > >>>>>I find the statement "Much of the progress of the twentieth   
   century   
   > >  can   
   > > > >>>   
   > > > >>>be   
   > > > >>>   
   > > > >>>   
   > > > >>>>>directly attributed to the rise of secularism and humanism"   
   > > > >   
   > > > > contentious.   
   > > > >   
   > > > >>>>I'd say a growing secularism has had a lot to do with increasing   
   > > > >>>>tolerance.  As to the humanism claim, well, frankly, I don't think   
   > >  it's   
   > > > >>>>even a blip on the radar.   
   > > > >>>>   
   > > > >>>>One must note that this individual, like his theistic counterparts   
   of   
   > > > >>>>similar mood, appears to equate secularism with atheism.  There   
   are   
   > > > >>>>plenty of people of faith who are secularists, because they know   
   it's   
   > > > >>>>the only way to preserve religious liberties for all (themselves   
   > > > >>>   
   > > > >>>included).   
   > > > >>>   
   > > > >>>   
   > > > >>>>For myself, I have no time for secular humanist clubs, even if   
   they   
   > >  give   
   > > > >>>>out neat beanies.  My primary interest is simply to have people   
   worry   
   > >  a   
   > > > >>>>lot less about what their fellow humans believe or don't believe.   
   > > > >>>>   
   > > > >>>>   
   > > > >>>>   
   > > > >>>>>I'm left wondering if you had religious upbringing.   
   > > > >>>>   
   > > > >>>>My suspicion also.   
   > > > >>>   
   > > > >>>   
   > > > >>>My post was clearly a quotation of a letter written by another.   
   > > > >>   
   > > > >>Then that observation sits with him, though judging by the rest of   
   your   
   > > > >>post, it would seem that you have similar leanings yourself.  Were   
   you   
   > > > >>always a secular humanist?   
   > > > >>   
   > > > >>   
   > > > >>>The equal rights of individuals and the ideal of reason and   
   rationality   
   > > > >>>based on this real world we all live in, have both been of such far   
   > > > >   
   > > > > reaching   
   > > > >   
   > > > >>>influence that the powers and freedoms we enjoy today as common   
   > > > >   
   > > > > individuals   
   > > > >   
   > > > >>>in most of this free society, surpass even that of kings as little   
   as   
   > > > >   
   > > > > two   
   > > > >   
   > > > >>>centuries ago.   
   > > > >>   
   > > > >>I know theists who have no problems whatsoever with freedoms.  At   
   least   
   > > > >>some great reformers, like Gladstone, seem to have been driven by   
   their   
   > > > >>religious beliefs.  Perhaps the world isn't quite so black and white   
   as   
   > > > >>either side would like to claim.   
   > > > >>   
   > > > >> > There is nothing dogmatic or religious about these facts   
   > >   
   > > > >>>much as you might want to think so.   
   > > > >>   
   > > > >>It is attempt to seize secularism and fashion it as an atheistic   
   > > > >>creation which I find disturbing.  As an atheist, I know full well   
   that   
   > > > >>secularism isn't reserved merely for the a-religious, but is a   
   concept   
   > > > >>that is shared by many religious people as well.  A number of the   
   > > > >>framers of such wonderous secular documents as the US Constitution   
   were   
   > > > >>deists, and yet they seemed to have a pretty damn good handle on   
   > > > >   
   > > > > secularism.   
   > > > >   
   > > > >>>The only faith  that secular humanism   
   > > > >>>requires is the faith in one's own reason such as we have faith in   
   our   
   > > > >>>ability to walk.  Yet so many stumble and trip and fall repeatedly   
   and   
   > > > >   
   > > > > then   
   > > > >   
   > > > >>>claim it was God's will or blame the enemy lol.   
   > > > >>   
   > > > >>I have no reason to slur the religious, and I'm afraid your slurs   
   and   
   > > > >>oversimplifications and generalizations rather indicate that you   
   share   
   > > > >>that intolerance that some theists do.   
   > > > >>   
   > > > >>Get over it, pal.  The world's a big place, and pissing on the other   
   > > > >>parade isn't going to make it better.  You're part of the problem,   
   not   
   > > > >>part of the solution.  Right-minded people, theistic or atheistic,   
   > > > >>should not desire to mock the other man's point of view, but rather   
   > > > >>accept his right to have his faith or lack of faith, so that   
   everyone   
   > > > >>can wake up in the morning, pray or not pray, go to work, be   
   productive   
   > > > >>members of society, go home, go to church or not go to church, so   
   that   
   > > > >>they can wake up the next morning and do it all over again.  Show a   
   > > > >>little respect.   
   > > > >>   
   > > > >>This sort of idiotic humanist evangelism is as pathetic and   
   > > > >>disrespectful and theistic evangelism.  If I had the power to   
   choose, I   
   > > > >>wouldn't mind seeing all the evangelists of all stripes carted off   
   to   
   > > > >>some far off island and leave the rest of humanity to get on with   
   > > > >>things.  You guys pick fights and then automatically assume those   
   folks   
      
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