XPost: sci.psychology.psychotherapy, alt.consciousness, talk.origins   
   From: RaanOne@One.org   
      
   "Atman"  wrote in message   
   news:m24tj01qo54r6thfp5q70abthkv6tu9rgp@4ax.com...   
   > On Sat, 4 Sep 2004 10:21:09 +0000 (UTC), "Raan"    
   > wrote:   
   >   
   > >>   
   > >> Direct experience has to be included in this facts and evidence, even   
   > >> though the experience is the interpretation of the experiencer   
   > >> themselves.  For example, Near Death Experiences, death bed   
   > >> experiences, and out of body experiences provide a vast amount of   
   > >> evidence for the consciousness being non-local to the physical body or   
   > >> brain.  But even with this evidence, non-local consciousness is still   
   > >> considered a belief by many people.  No one can claim proof here, just   
   > >> theories and probabilities based upon the evidence of the experience   
   > >> and all "known" data.   
   > >>   
   >   
   > >Witness testimony must be backed up by corroborating evidence.  Many   
   people   
   > >who have turned circles and stopped have been witness to the experience   
   of   
   > >the world continuing to spin around them.  Naturally this has been   
   explained   
   > >by reference to the ear canal and the nuances of perception as well and   
   > >blood flow... and there are similar explanations for the experiences you   
   > >describe.  Certainly there are limits to science and science is the limit   
   of   
   > >verifiable knowledge.  There are also limits to credibility and many   
   people   
   > >pass well beyond that and then the world seems to spin.   
   >   
   >   
   > Actually, there is a great deal of scientific research conducted   
   > around these type of experiences - with witnesses.  But by the very   
   > nature of the experience there is very little room for "controlled"   
   > experiments.  The most convening reports in relation to consciousness   
   > are the experiences reported by doctors.  Many in-depth surveys have   
   > been conducted of random doctors and the probabilities point to the   
   > survival of consciousness after the death of the physical body.   
      
   You are certainly overstating the case.   
      
   > In addition, it's very interesting that "cutting edge" science is   
   > starting to describe the nature of reality and consciousness in the   
   > same way that mystics have been describing it since before recorded   
   > history.  Perhaps, if you cut through the myths there was a great deal   
   > of truth in the old religions after all.   
      
   What you refer to as cutting edge science might be better referred to as   
   fringe science.  What the true mystics say about transcendence is that   
   nothing can be said of it not even that it is transcendent.   
      
   > -----------------------------------------------------------------   
   > Suggested reading:   
   >   
   > *****  "At the hour of Death", by Karlis Osis, Ph.D.  *****   
   >   
   > "The Afterlife Experiments" by Gary E. Schwartz, Ph D.   
   >   
   > "Mindsight" by Kenneth Ring   
   >   
   > "The Undiscovered Mind" by John Horgan   
   >   
   > "The Living Energy Universe" by Gary E.R. Schwartz   
   >   
   > "Mind at Large: Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers   
   > Symposia on the Nature of Extrasensory Perception (Studies in   
   > Consciousness)" by Charles T. Tart, Harold E. Puthoff, Russell Targ   
   >   
   > "The Consciousness Universe" by Dean Radin, Ph.D.   
      
   I appreciate the bibliography but it seems to lack and skeptical viewpoints   
   and counter arguments.  And since it is less likely I am going to purchase   
   these books and may not even find them in my local library it would be   
   better if you cited some websites instead.   
   Thank you.   
   --   
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