XPost: sci.psychology.psychotherapy, alt.consciousness, talk.origins   
   From: RaanOne@One.org   
      
   "Atman"  wrote in message   
   news:cpp4k090ftlekfdvqmf2vvek0962e9mhk4@4ax.com...   
   > On Wed, 8 Sep 2004 05:50:46 +0000 (UTC), "Raan"    
   > wrote:   
   >   
   >   
   > >> Actually, there is a great deal of scientific research conducted   
   > >> around these type of experiences - with witnesses.  But by the very   
   > >> nature of the experience there is very little room for "controlled"   
   > >> experiments.  The most convening reports in relation to consciousness   
   > >> are the experiences reported by doctors.  Many in-depth surveys have   
   > >> been conducted of random doctors and the probabilities point to the   
   > >> survival of consciousness after the death of the physical body.   
   > >   
   > >You are certainly overstating the case.   
   > >   
   >   
   > I don't think so, but you should investigate the evidence yourself.   
   > But having had a near death experience, out of body experiences, and   
   > other experiences, I make no claim of being unbiased.   
      
   I have had experiences such as you describe without however accepting your   
   biased labels and descriptions or leaping to any conclusions about the true   
   nature of the experiences.   
      
   > >What you refer to as cutting edge science might be better referred to as   
   > >fringe science.  What the true mystics say about transcendence is that   
   > >nothing can be said of it not even that it is transcendent.   
   > >   
   >   
   > Today's fringe is tomorrow mainstream.  Much real scientific progress   
   > was made by those who where called fringe in there time.   
      
   Much more real scientific progress was made by those who were never called   
   fringe in there time, and the vast majority who were called fringe in their   
   time made no scientific progress at all.  You are taking the example of a   
   few and applying it as a rule.   
      
   > True mystics speak much about transcendence.  How would anyone have   
   > ever heard of transcendence otherwise.  It is even embedded into many   
   > religious texts, but often over looked or misunderstood.  Mystics do   
   > point out that it's like describing light to a blind person.  Often   
   > highly descriptive and figurative language are used, as well as   
   > parables and poetry.   
      
   You are misguided if you think that a truly mystical "experience" can be   
   described at all, and any responsible person who has had an awakening will   
   be sure to warn that any description they give is inaccurate, not because   
   others do not have the insight but because it is innately indescribable.   
   However as a responsible mystic something must be said to try to share   
   the"experience" thus we have what you describe above.   
      
   > >> -----------------------------------------------------------------   
   > >> Suggested reading:   
   > >>   
   > >> *****  "At the hour of Death", by Karlis Osis, Ph.D.  *****   
   > >>   
   > >> "The Afterlife Experiments" by Gary E. Schwartz, Ph D.   
   > >>   
   > >> "Mindsight" by Kenneth Ring   
   > >>   
   > >> "The Undiscovered Mind" by John Horgan   
   > >>   
   > >> "The Living Energy Universe" by Gary E.R. Schwartz   
   > >>   
   > >> "Mind at Large: Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers   
   > >> Symposia on the Nature of Extrasensory Perception (Studies in   
   > >> Consciousness)" by Charles T. Tart, Harold E. Puthoff, Russell Targ   
   > >>   
   > >> "The Consciousness Universe" by Dean Radin, Ph.D.   
   > >   
   > >I appreciate the bibliography but it seems to lack and skeptical   
   viewpoints   
   > >and counter arguments.  And since it is less likely I am going to   
   purchase   
   > >these books and may not even find them in my local library it would be   
   > >better if you cited some websites instead.   
   > >Thank you.   
   >   
   > The list wasn't really intended to include skeptical viewpoints, but   
   > rather to provide some very interesting scientific studies that anyone   
   > interested in science investigation into the nature of consciousness   
   > might be interested.   
   >   
   >  "At the hour of death"  Is a large study of death bed experiences as   
   > reported by doctors in the USA and India.  "Mindsight" is about NDE's   
   > of blind persons.  These two would be my top picks from that list.   
      
   Thanks for that.  I do not think you are arguing from a bias against an open   
   skeptical viewpoint but form a genuine desire to find the truth and I   
   strongly suggest you do adopt a skeptical view if you hope to stay tree to   
   your course.  I trust that you understand that a skeptical viewpoint is not   
   a cynical viewpoint but is open to evidence but closed to unwarranted   
   conclusions.  Please do carry on in your search guided by reason and always   
   with a willingness to question.   
   --   
                  >   
      
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