XPost: sci.psychology.psychotherapy, alt.consciousness, talk.origins
From: mightymartianca@hotmail.com
On Wed, 15 Sep 2004 13:26:28 +0000 (UTC),
Harry K wrote:
> Double Felix wrote in message
news:...
>> In article , "Uncle Davey"
>> wrote:
>>
>> > Użytkownik "Susan S" napisał w wiadomości
>> > news:mrqbk0h4dgaragjme0ilb08cv981d81ctf@4ax.com...
>> > > In talk.origins I read this message from Double Felix
>> > > :
>> > >
>> > > >In article , "Uncle Davey"
>> > > >wrote:
>> > > >
>> > > >> Użytkownik "bckwrds" napisał w wiadomości
>> > > >> news:ci1p38$f6o$0$216.39.143.27@theriver.com...
>> > > >> >
>> > > >> > "AC" wrote in message
>> > > >> > news:2qhm0cFvqiumU1@uni-berlin.de...
>> > > >> >
>> > > >> > [major snippage to get to the point]
>> > > >> >
>> > > >> >
>> > > >> > > > Atheism would not exist in any cultures where it not for the
>> free-will,
>> > > >> > > > faith-based way
>> > > >> > > > That Christ has chosen to redeem us.
>> > > >> > >
>> > > >> > > Atheism exists because some people don't believe in God.
Hinduism
>> > > >> > > exists because some people believe in at least some members of
the
>> Hindu
>> > > >> > > pantheon, etc. ad nauseum.
>> > > >> > >
>> > > >> > > > There are no atheist angels, and no atheist demons.
>> > > >> > >
>> > > >> > > CAn you provide me with any emperical evidence that any of these
>> beings
>> > > >> > > exist, Davey? Perhaps you missed one of the key p
>> > > >> >
>> > > >> >
>> > > >> > 1) should have died in a head on car crash...only room for two cars
>> on
>> this
>> > > >> > road and I was the third....my car got a cratch in the point. It
was
>> > > >> > unbelieveable.
>> > > >> > I got out and looked my car over and over again....nothing was
wrong.
>> > > >> >
>> > > >> > 2) was caught in the riptide with my sister as a young child. We
>> both
>> > > >> > screamed to our mom on the shore that we couldn't get in....that we
>> were
>> > > >> > both being pushed further and further into the ocean. I could only
>> barely
>> > > >> > touch the bottom with my tippy toes when I went under.
>> > > >> > I said "God, help me!" God told me to take my sisters hand and
walk
>> in.
>> > > >> > I did just that and walked right in.
>> > > >> >
>> > > >> > 3) Playing at my aunts home. Some cousins grapped a hold of an
>> electric
>> > > >> > fence that my uncle had rigged so that the power never went off and
>> had
>> > > >> > it at some super power level to keep his cows in. This cousin
found
>> himself
>> > > >> > stuck to the line. His brother grapped him to help pull him off
only
>> to
>> > > >> > find himself stuck....another person grapped onto him to help with
>> the
>> > > >> > same result. Three kids now being electrocuted in front of us all.
>> I
>> asked
>> > > >> > God "what should I do???" God told me to grap by cousins hand and
>> > > >> > to leaned back. I did just that and we all came tumbling free.
Note
>> that
>> > > >> > God didn't tell me to put my head down and plow into the first
cousin
>> > > >> > to knock them all free....but to grap hold of a hand and pull them
>> off...
>> > > >> > exactly what had caused them all to be stuck. I not only listened,
>> but
>> > > >> > obeyed.
>> > > >> >
>> > > >> > It's called angels.
>> > > >> >
>> > > >> > It's called God.
>> > > >> >
>> > > >> > It's called the love of my Father.
>> > > >> >
>> > > >> > It's called faith.
>> > > >> >
>> > > >> > many many stories are on the news day after day after year after
>> year.
>> > > >> >
>> > > >> > Mystics? HA
>> > > >> >
>> > > >>
>> > > >> It doesn't matter how many cases of this there are in the lives of
>> people
>> > > >> they know and even in their own lives, they will choose to ignore
them
>> under
>> > > >> the banner of rationalism.
>> > > >>
>> > > >> One time I was driving on the road and one car overtaking me like a
>> maniac
>> > > >> had a head on collision with another car coming the other way. Both
>> cars
>> > > >> spun around and came to a halt in the road one in front of me and one
>> behind
>> > > >> me, each facing back the way they came. Since the road was not broad
>> enough
>> > > >> for them to spin around like that next to me without hitting me I
could
>> not
>> > > >> work out how it had happened, and to this day there seems only one
>> > > >> explanation.
>> > > >>
>> > > >> Uncle Davey
>> > > >
>> > > >That God wanted you to be in the middle of a car wreck unharmed?
>> > > >
>> > > > - Felix
>> > >
>> > > And does it follow then, that God wants those who are injured or
>> > > killed in auto accidents to be so?
>> > >
>> >
>> > Well Sue, there are those he allows to be and those he doesn't. That is
>> > implicit in any such belief in an intervening deity. It is difficult to
be a
>> > sentimentalist and yet believe in a God who is still involved in events on
>> > this planet.
>> >
>> > Uncle Davey
>>
>> The general rule is, if some unexpected *good* event occurs, it's
>> because God was watching out for you.
>>
>> If some unexpected *bad* event occurs, it's because God moves in
>> mysterious ways.
>>
>> Did I get it right?
>>
>> - Felix
>
> Pretty close. I like samples like davey's. Somehow while God was
> watching out for him, he allowed two other (at least) people to have
> -really- bad day. That never seems to be considered or mentioned.
That's the holy mystery of it all. It's the safety valve Christians (and
others as well) have built in to divine intervention, so that even if
something bad happens to a True Believer, it's all part of the Grand Scheme,
which is beyond mere human comprehension. At the same time the non-believer
is supposed to be so impressed by the intervention that saves lives that we
simply take it for granted that when God doesn't, that's his business (and
it's so complex that us weak, sinning mortals could never understand). This
is, as far as I can tell, the pattern of claims of divine intervention
whatever the faith. One would think that True Believers would be wiser not
to use this as part of their advertising campaign. "Brand X works really
great on stains, except when it doesn't, but it's a really great product."
It reminds me of my step-grandmother, who got a pretty fierce form of
cancer. She went to a faith healer, who laid his hands upon her and prayed,
[continued in next message]
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* Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)
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