XPost: sci.psychology.psychotherapy, alt.consciousness, talk.origins
From: mightymartianca@hotmail.com
On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 20:02:35 +0000 (UTC),
Uncle Davey wrote:
>
> Użytkownik "AC" napisał w wiadomości
> news:2qn293F119mivU1@uni-berlin.de...
>> Uncle Davey wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> >
>> > Well, I'm not gonna give you your "evidence". I will not, would not and
>> > cannot. Something other than evidence is needful here.
>>
>> If that is standard you wish to base a world view on, be my guest.
>>
>> >
>> > You think there should be evidence, but if that were so it would negate
> the
>> > very gospel and the point of salvation by faith.
>>
>> I don't really even see a point as to why an infinite, all-powerful
>> being would even require such a test.
>>
>> > You come from a salvation
>> > by works religion background,
>>
>> I don't even see the point as to why any infinite, all-powerful being
>> would require good works from his creations either. What possible
>> difference could it make to an entity so far above us in any every
>> conceivable way?
>>
>> >from which your quest for evidence is very
>> > rational and understandable,
>>
>> Then you should understand why I won't accept your say-so, or the say-so
>> of the Apostle Paul.
>>
>> >but please understand that for the other
>> > alternative way of salvation, that of faith in Christ's death and not
> our
>> > works, to be valid, then the alternative, scientific version of events
> just
>> > HAS TO BE MORE CREDIBLE.
>>
>> Science has nothing to do with spiritual salvation. As you readily
>> admit there is no evidence for any of this, then it has nothing to do
>> with science, and certainly isn't an alternative.
>>
>> > All I can then do is show you things that your
>> > system has no real answer for, such as the genesis of chlorophyll,
>>
>> Ah yes, the invokation of magical solutions for problems we may not have
>> answers to yet. You do know what happens to a god of the gaps, Davey.
>> As knowledge increases, he just keeps shrinking.
>>
>> > such as
>> > the enormity of the likelihood against your even existing in the first
> place
>> > under your system, such as the absolute absence of signs of other
> planetary
>> > lifeforms,
>>
>> This is nothing more than an argument from incredulity. I don't invoke
>> magic every time I can't explain something.
>>
>> > such as the fact that by evolution language should have had a
>> > monogenesis whereas the extant forms point to a polygenesis that the
> Babel
>> > account can explain better than any extant paper,
>>
>> Your Babel myth is yet again nothing more than an invokation of magic to
>> fill in a gap in our knowledge. I'm not impressed.
>>
>> > such as the correlation
>> > between generational times and number of species in a genus, in my most
>> > recent hypothesis, hailed as the first attempt at science by a
> creationist
>> > on this board.
>>
>> Save that if you invoke a supernatural creator, it isn't science any
>> more by definition, Davey.
>>
>> > All these things only stack up to things that will help you
>> > see your system doesn't have all the answers, and you take it on faith
> just
>> > as much as I do mine.
>>
>> Save that the scientific approach to studying nature actually has the
>> capacity to answer the questions, while simply invoking magic sky gods
>> answers nothing at all.
>>
>> >
>> > It's my heart's desire for you that you might finally take the
> birthright of
>> > salvation by faith in Christ that watchtower perverted for you and
> robbed
>> > you of.
>>
>> I would suggest you find another project. I will only disappoint you.
>> I don't need salvation, don't believe sin even exists, and I find even
>> the tamest version of Yahweh to be a right nasty being who, even if he
>> did exist, would find little but contempt from me, poor, insignificant
>> creation that you allege I am.
>>
>> I have analyzed other forms of Christianity, and found them as bankrupt
>> from point of view as the JWs. Your omphalism, Catholicism, and a whole
>> gammut of Christian theology are as outrageous as any quote-mine out of
>> a JW anti-evolution handbooks. If you insist on this silly project of
>> yours, then I'll be blunt about it. You can provide no evidence for
>> your god, or for salvation. What you conflate with rational
>> observation, nonsense like the Babel story, is nothing more than a
>> textbook example of a god of the gaps argument, and you're right, my
>> mind is closed to that. If you have actual evidence, then provide it.
>> Explanations without evidence are, at best, interesting mental
>> experiments, and at worst, simply ways to try to shore up your position
>> without having to do any of the heavy lifting of science.
>>
>> You are under the mistaken belief that I became an atheist to screw my
>> religious past. Nothing could be further from the truth. I became an
>> atheist because I sincerely do not accept the existence of Yahweh, and
>> can, from my position, readily see that the stories about him that the
>> ancient Hebrews recorded are no different than the stories recorded by
>> the ancient Mesopotamians, the Greeks, the Egyptians, the Aztecs and the
>> Hindus. Given the choices lined up before me, your religion seems no
>> more necessary to my existence than any other. So I choose the null
>> hypothesis, that your claims simply aren't true, unless you can provide
>> evidence that they are.
>>
>
> You decided one day that you would only be happy with objective proofs.
I decided one day that people make up things, sometimes to make themselves
and others feel better, sometimes for more nefarious ends.
> Taking that line enabled you to leave Watchtower, and so served you well,
No, Davey, I left the JWs long before I chose what I consider a rational
outlook. You should be a little more cautious when trying to read other
peoples' minds.
> but you have overreacted, because salvation by faith DEMANDS that belief is
> given in the absence or insufficiency of proof.
From where I sit, I reacted perfectly well to a world full of silly
superstitions.
> What did Christ say to
> doubting Thomas? "Blessed are those who have not seen, and yet believe".
That could be con-man's blessing as well.
>
> There are two systems of salvation, by works or by faith. This dichotomy
> resounds throughout the whole New Testament. If salvation were by works, and
> not by faith, then we could receive proof of god's existence and plan
> without it spoiling things, and all that would be left to do is to gather up
> the better part of the human race and give them a reward. But we are wholly
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* Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)
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