XPost: sci.psychology.psychotherapy, alt.consciousness, talk.origins   
   From: nick@SKIPTHESECAPSbackpack.com   
      
   In article ,   
    hurin1@yahoo.com (Az_) wrote:   
      
   > Double Felix  wrote in message   
   news:...   
   > Snippage for clarity   
   >   
   > >   
   > > Well, I guess the point I was trying to make is that it's very subjective   
   > > when we can understand God's intervention and when we can't.   
   >   
   > Well it depends.  Are we saying that god intervening contravenes the   
   > natural order of events?   
      
   Yep. Otherwise, how can it be 'intervention'?   
      
   > Or are we saying that god effectively   
   > intervened at the very beginning knowing that this moment would come   
   > and thus the natural order of events lead to this intervention?   
      
   Ah, the god of deism. If I believed in the supernatural, this would be   
   my god of choice.   
      
   > The path chosen here determines whether we can objectively identify   
   > god's intervention.  If god intervened at the moment of creation and   
   > set everything in motion in such a way that the necissary intervention   
   > occurred when needed then we cannot objectively determines it's   
   > nature.   
   >   
   > If however he intervenes at the actual moment then it is detectable.   
   > That is he creates an event that goes against the laws of nature as we   
   > understand them.  This would be objectively identifiable.   
      
   The problem is, we can only *imagine* how things might have turned out   
   as opposed to how the events, in fact, unfolded.   
      
   This is why I shrug whenever somebody says something like, "if only he   
   had left home 15 seconds sooner, that truck wouldn't have hit him."   
      
   I think the concept of free will depends in no small part on our ability   
   to imagine different circumstances and different outcomes. It's strictly   
   imaginary, and that fantasy takes place in the present regardless of   
   whether its subject is a past event or a future event.   
      
    - Felix   
      
   --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05   
    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)