XPost: sci.psychology.psychotherapy, alt.consciousness, talk.origins
From: mightymartianca@hotmail.com
On Thu, 9 Sep 2004 22:36:55 +0000 (UTC),
Uncle Davey wrote:
>
> Użytkownik "AC" napisał w wiadomości
> news:slrncjv1bi.2b6.mightymartianca@aaronclausen.alberni.net...
>> On Wed, 8 Sep 2004 20:37:48 +0000 (UTC),
>> Uncle Davey via Google wrote:
>> >
>> > But there are those who have persecuted believers in the past and they
>> > will do so again in the future.
>>
>> And there are those that have persecuted non-believers.
>>
>> > It is written "all those who would
>> > live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution".
>>
>> Except that there have been periods of history where those that did not
>> believe Jesus was God and the savior where themselves persecuted against.
>> Even now, an atheist in the United States. no matter how honorable or
>> qualified, could achieve any high office. Worse, some good Christian folk
>> might even think him unAmerican, a threat to their religion and
> potentially
>> even a traitor, simply because he does not accept the existence of the
> God
>> of Abraham.
>>
>> >In the near
>> > future I plan, God willing to digitalise some recordings I made near
>> > the end of the Soviet Union when I was priviledged to be helping some
>> > very persecuted brethren and put them on my website.
>>
>> As long as you give equal time to the people brutalized by Christian
>> fundementalists.
>
> I don't know any of those personally, but if you give me a verifiable
> recording I'll put it up.
I'm sure you can find some references to homosexuals being abused by
Christian fundies (you'll note, I'm not including all Christians here).
>
>>
>> I'm not attacking Christianity, I'm attacking a mindset that refuses all
>> compromise, that not only claim that they are right, but that are willing
> to
>> suppress those that disagree.
>>
>> The Soviet Union was one country, twisted by power-hungry men seeking to
>> break the old ties to the equally dictatorial Czars (who, ironically, were
>> among the last monarchs to proclaim their divine right to rule from the
> God
>> of Abraham). It wasn't atheism that drove them, but rather the need to
> cut
>> away the symbolism of the old Christian Russia. Atheism was a political
>> tool, which I don't think you'd find many atheists today approving of.
>
> The guy you were speaking to would and the guy who first suggested I go and
> get my ass kicked at t.o. seemed to.
I won't deny that there mean-spirited atheists. I have no greater love for
them than you do. Most of the atheists I know have no desire to destroy
Christianity, they just want to be respected as human beings, not accorded
respect because they attend the right temple.
>
>>
>> The Soviet Union attempted to replace religion with party doctrine. It
>> created a cult of personality around Lenin, changing him from
> Revolutionary
>> leader into an ideological saint, treated with the same reverence that
>> Christian saints before had been. That is not my idea of a secular
> society,
>> but rather one where one religion was simply swapped for another. Where
> the
>> Christian religion in Russia was wound around the Bible, saints and the
>> power of the Orthodox Church, the new religion was wound around Marx's
>> writings, the Communist Party and the culthood of Lenin (and later, the
>> temporary deification of Stalin).
>>
>> The same pattern was seen in China, where the Maoists attempted to make a
>> clean break from Chinese tradition, particularly Confucisism. Sadly, I
>> think the Maoists may have been more successful and destroying China's
>> heritage than the Leninists and Stalinists were in Russia.
>>
>> My idea of a secular society is one where freedom of worship is
> guaranteed,
>> where every faith is treated equally, and where government governs for all
>> the people, and without faovritism towards any one faith or sect therein.
>> It does not intrude religious beliefs into the activities of government.
>> The government should be blind to whether one is a Catholic, Methodist,
>> Muslim, Jew, Wiccan or atheist, and yet all of these, and the entire
>> spectrum of beliefs, should be tolerated. In such a society, it may mean
>> that certain religous-based moral codes may be violated by notions of
>> abortion, euthanasia and gay marriage, but those religious people will
>> understand that such a society also protects their beliefs and their faith
>> from the interference of the state.
>>
>> I'm not asking you to agree with my atheism, Davey, nor am I demanding
> that
>> your church approve of abortion, euthanasia or homosexual marriages. I'm
>> asking that you ponder a society where every man is allowed to decide
> these
>> things on his own, or in a group that he freely follows, without official
>> encumbrance from any branch or representative of government. Let your
>> conscience rule your own actions, but don't seek to let it rule the
> actions
>> of others, and let any morals or ethics to be accepted by society in
> general
>> be governed by the principles of basic individual freedoms.
>>
>> That's what I mean when I reject fundementalism, or any movement by any
>> individual or group to enforce their own beliefs or lack of beliefs upon
>> other people. Though I would fight to my last breath to prevent your
>> omphalism or your Calvinism from being taught in public schools in my
>> country or to be given government favor or sanction, by the same token I'd
>> fight against any Secular Humanist who attempted to stop you from publicly
>> declaring your beliefs.
>>
>
> As you know I am not fighting to have religious themes brought into schools
> anyway, as these are for Church and family.
Then you support at least some notions of secularism.
>
> I believe in the free market of ideas, and therefore I have said all along
> that all should be free to put forward their ideas.
And I would not disagree with you there either. Any limitation on the right
of an individual to express his religious views would be wrong.
>
> Homosexuals who wish to live together ought to be given the same tax breaks
> if any apply as heterosexuals, since I am not after their money, and the
> same benefits with regard to inheritance, quiet enjoyment of their property,
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