XPost: sci.psychology.psychotherapy, alt.consciousness, talk.origins   
   From: RaanOne@One.org   
      
   "Giant Sloth"  wrote in message   
   news:6b1053df.0409112225.2d245b3e@posting.google.com...   
   > "Raan"  wrote in message   
   news:...   
   > > "Giant Sloth"  wrote in message   
   > > news:6b1053df.0409111158.1ee0923c@posting.google.com...   
   > > > "Raan"  wrote in message   
   > >  news:...   
   > > > > "Giant Sloth"  wrote in message   
   > > > > news:6b1053df.0409072346.1444912@posting.google.com...   
   > > > > >    
   > > > > >   
   > > > > > > > > > You're a fundemenatlist atheist, just as intellectually   
   > >  diseased   
   > >  and   
   > > > > > > > > > morally perverted as your theistic counterparts.   
   > > > > > > > >   
   > > > > > > > > You do nto know me sir.   
   > > > > > > > >   
   > > > > > > > > > I think I have a unique vantage on this, being married to   
   a   
   > >  Catholic.  I   
   > > > > > > > > > don't agree with my wife's beliefs, and find her faith   
   > >  perplexing   
   > >  at   
   > > > > > > > > > times, but you know what, that's her right, and neither I,   
   you   
   > >  or   
   > >  any   
   > > > > > > > > > other self-righteous bastard with a chip on their shoulder   
   has   
   > >  any   
   > >  right   
   > > > > > > > > > to take that away from her.   
   > > > > > > > >   
   > > > > > > > > Her affliction is to be pitied as is your own.   
   > > > > > > > >   
   > > > > > > > > > Learn a little respect, and quit blaming theism for the   
   > >  underlying   
   > > > > > > > > > problems of xenophic, hairless apes who use any goddamn   
   excuse   
   > >  to   
   > >  mop   
   > > > > > > > > > the floor with the other guy.  How can I stand up to   
   someone   
   > >  like   
   > >  Uncle   
   > > > > > > > > > Davey and say "I'm an atheist, and I'm not your enemy",   
   when   
   > >  some   
   > > > > > > > > > evangelical like yourself is going around doing exactly   
   what   
   > >  they   
   > >  want.   
   > > > > > > > >   
   > > > > > > > > You fail to understand my view simply because you honestly   
   > >  cannot   
   > >  conceive   
   > > > > > > > > of it supposing that everyone must believe something and yet   
   > >  instead   
   > >  of   
   > > > > > > > > "looking into it" as I recommended you misconstrue it as an   
   > >  attack   
   > >  on   
   > > > > > > > > theism.  There is little point in further discussion with   
   > >  someone   
   > >  with a   
   > > > > > > > > chip on their shoulder the way you do.  Again I strongly   
   suggest   
   > >  you   
   > >  look   
   > > > > > > > > into the assertion that All belief is the underlying cause   
   of   
   > >  human   
   > > > > > > > > suffering.  Note I said All belief and I mean belief of any   
   > >  kind.   
   > >  Try it   
   > > > > > > > > again or don't expect any response.   
   > > > > > > >   
   > > > > > > >   
   > > > > > > > I don't have a chip on my shoulder but what you say makes   
   little   
   > >  sense   
   > > > > > > > to me.  When you say all belief is the underlying cause of   
   human   
   > > > > > > > suffering, that in itself is a belief.  Perhaps you are   
   suffering   
   > > > > > > > because of that belief.  I looked on the website for the   
   Council   
   > >  for   
   > > > > > > > Secular Humanism and found the following:   
   > > > > > >   
   > > > > > > No it is not a belief but an assertion and an observation which   
   if   
   > >  you   
   > > > > > > actually bothered to look into it and consider it seriously   
   whoulc   
   > >  reveal   
   > > > > > > itself to you as a simple basic operational description of the   
   > >  actual   
   > >  case.   
   > > > > > >   
   > > > > > >   
   > > > > > > > ****   
   > > > > > > > Secular humanists don't believe the one, final, absolute truth   
   has   
   > > > > > > > been revealed to them. On the contrary, we believe that all   
   > >  beliefs   
   > > > > > > > are fallible and provisional, and that diversity and dialogue   
   are   
   > > > > > > > essential to the process of learning and developing. Thus we   
   value   
   > > > > > > > tolerance, pluralism, and open-mindedness as positive and   
   > >  beneficial   
   > > > > > > > qualities in society. Humanists are staunch supporters of   
   freedom   
   > >  of   
   > > > > > > > religion, belief, and conscience, as laid out in both the U.S.   
   > > > > > > > Constitution and the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.   
   These   
   > > > > > > > rights protect the freedom of religious belief equally with   
   the   
   > > > > > > > freedom of nonreligious belief, the freedom of religion   
   equally   
   > >  with   
   > > > > > > > the freedom from religion.   
   > > > > > > >   
   > > > > > > > Secular humanists would actually oppose advocacy of their   
   > >  worldview by   
   > > > > > > > schools or the government because that would violate the   
   > >  neutrality of   
   > > > > > > > a secular society, and the rights of religious believers.   
   Secular   
   > > > > > > > humanists believe that a healthy society supports a variety of   
   > > > > > > > worldviews, just as it supports a variety of political   
   parties. We   
   > > > > > > > also believe that religious and philosophical views should be   
   > >  every   
   > > > > > > > bit as open to debate and discussion as political beliefs.   
   > > > > > > > *****   
   > > > > > > >   
   > > > > > > > Sounds like secular humanists themselves have beliefs,   
   including   
   > >  the   
   > > > > > > > belief that a healthy society has a variety of worldviews (set   
   of   
   > > > > > > > beliefs).  Do you disagree?   
   > > > > > >   
   > > > > > > I disagree with the terminology being used.  Belief is not the   
   best   
   > >  word   
   > >  to   
   > > > > > > identify the philosophical position which denies the advocacy of   
   > >  beliefs.   
   > > > > > > There is a logical fallacy which hinges on just such a confusion   
   of   
   > >  meaning   
   > > > > > > when the same word is used to describe different things but is   
   then   
   > >  taken to   
   > > > > > > mean the same thing by the antagonist.  Clearly if there is a   
   belief   
   > >  in   
   > >  no   
   > > > > > > beliefs this is a contradiction however if the former term   
   belief is   
   > > > > > > understood as meaning something similar to but other then belief   
   as   
   > >  used   
   > >  in   
   > > > > > > the second term, the contradiction is dissolved and your   
   argument   
   > >  rendered   
   > > > > > > impotent.  It is for this very reason that I resist the use of   
   the   
   > >  term   
   > >  at   
   > > > > > > all.  Worldview may be the best term to use since one may   
   operate   
   > >  under   
   > >  a   
   > > > > > > given worldview without holding it to be the truth without   
   > >  conclusive   
   > > > > > > evidence, which is what a belief is.  A worldview need not be a   
   > >  belief   
   > >  per   
   > > > > > > se though many might use the word belief in a casual way.  For   
   > >  example,   
   > >  is   
   > > > > > > an opinion always a belief?  No but a belief is always an   
   opinion.   
   > >  And   
   > >  is a   
   > > > > > > worldview not an opinion?  Yes it is and so while it may be a   
   belief   
   > >  it   
   > >  is   
      
   [continued in next message]   
      
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    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)