XPost: sci.psychology.psychotherapy, alt.consciousness, talk.origins   
   From: RaanOne@One.org   
      
   Belief is bullshit.   
   If you truly think that reasoning is subjective you thereby negate reason   
   itself and fall entirely within the realm of fantasy and subjectivism.   
   Good luck with that.   
   --   
                  >   
      
   "Paul.Orchard/Digital Mage"  wrote in message   
   news:4b701bd6.0409130746.192be83c@posting.google.com...   
   > The World as it applies to me   
   >   
   > I do truely feel that everything is relative to YOU. Why should we   
   > even debate it. I survived a wreck, someone or something must be   
   > attributed to it, no matter who you are it is compulsive to have   
   > reasoning. therefore all reasoning to do with things we have no   
   > knowledge or factual data on should be deemed as truth. May you be a   
   > luck person or a god person or even a devil person, your reasoning is   
   > specific to only you and should anyone be offended by it they have   
   > their reasoning for that too.   
   >   
   > George Carlin says a particular gem of a quote "Keep thine religion to   
   > thine self"   
   >   
   > on this note I will say, "I believe what I believe and what I believe   
   > does not require you to believe"   
   >   
   > Wrap your psychology around that one.   
   > PS I am a good philosopher but I am not a very good human, me and   
   > people don't mix too well.   
   >   
   >   
   >   
   > > > > > > > >So to reason and apply that reason by means of the self   
   > >  correcting   
   > >  objective   
   > > > > > > > >methods of science is to have as dogmatic a faith as any   
   religion   
   > >  is   
   > >  that   
   > > > > > > > >right.  And I suppose mathematics as it is applied to   
   engineering   
   > >  is   
   > > > >  just   
   > > > >  an   
   > > > > > > > >occult magical system.  You might want to reassess your view.   
   > > > > > > >   
   > > > > > > > Nope!  Many of the belief systems, religious or otherwise,   
   that   
   > >  are   
   > > > > > > > being denounced by Secular Humanism also claim to have   
   scientific   
   > > > > > > > support or even scientific proof on their side.  All to often   
   > >  people   
   > > > > > > > ignore data that does not fit there view point.  This includes   
   > >  those   
   > > > > > > > who support Secular Humanism.  The observer is effecting that   
   > >  which is   
   > > > > > > > being observed.  The interpretation of scientific data is very   
   > > > > > > > subjective.   
   > > > > > > >   
   > > > > > > > Secular Humanism has received a bad name due to actions taken   
   by   
   > > > > > > > Communist states under the banner of state sponsored Secular   
   > >  Humanism.   
   > > > > > > > Much like many religions receive a bad name due to the actions   
   of   
   > > > > > > > extreme fundamentalists in their groups.  The Communist state   
   > >  replaced   
   > > > > > > > God and all to often the state then decides that it's OK to   
   > >  execute,   
   > > > > > > > imprison,  torture,  or re-educate all people who express any   
   > > > > > > > religious or spiritual beliefs.  Hundreds of millions died in   
   > >  Russia,   
   > > > > > > > China, Vietnam, and other Communists countries.   
   > > > > > > >   
   > > > > > > > Bottom line is that all dogma, fanaticism, fundamentalism, and   
   > > > > > > > extremism can be dangerous, even under the name of Secular   
   > >  Humanism.   
   > > > > > > >   
   > > > > > > >  Agreeing to respect other people's right to hold and publicly   
   > >  express   
   > > > > > > > their beliefs, even those religious beliefs that you disagree   
   > >  with,   
   > > > > > > > has proved to be the only workable solution.   
   > > > > > > >   
   > > > > > >   
   > > > > > > And is universal tolerance tolerant of intolerance?   
   > > > > > > Beliefs are ignorance posing as knowledge.   
   > > > > > > The limitations of reason and science do not negate them.   
   > > > > > > Many think themselves reasonable that are not.   
   > > > > > > And many label themselves other than what they are.   
   > > > > > > My disagreement is with belief itself and none in particular.   
   > > > > > > These sentences may be out of order but there you have it.   
   > > > > >   
   > > > > > Raan, you have a powerful emotional response to the word "belief".   
   > > > > > Since many people use it properly, it would probably be best if   
   you   
   > > > > > got over this, or you will not be able to have a rational   
   conversation   
   > > > > > with a lot of folks, including those who share most of your ideas.   
   > > > > >   
   > > > > > We should no more surrender our use of the word "belief" just   
   because   
   > > > > > some religious fanatics misuse it, then we should give up the   
   words   
   > > > > > "theory" or "science".   
   > > > > >   
   > > > > > Kermit   
   > > > >   
   > > > > To believe is to hold something to be true... without conclusive   
   > >  evidence.   
   > > > > I add that last part as an implication of the actual proper usage of   
   the   
   > > > > word, because if there were conclusive evidence one would certainly   
   hold   
   > >  it   
   > > > > to be true but one would not need to claim any belief it since it   
   has   
   > >  been   
   > > > > factually proven.  I do not say for example that I believe my name   
   is   
   > >  Raan,   
   > > > > because that is a given and established fact.  Moreover one may   
   adopt a   
   > >  view   
   > > > > as workable without therefore holding it as being true in actuality   
   and   
   > > > > therefore would not be believing it.  As to why you think it should   
   > >  follow   
   > > > > that I should give up the words "theory" or :science" I don't see   
   how   
   > >  that   
   > > > > follows at all.  Since you have fixated on what you construe as my   
   > >  apparent   
   > > > > emotional reaction to the word "belief" does this mean you have not   
   > > > > considered the basis for my objection to belief itself?   
   > > >   
   > > > If you look up the word "belief" in the dictionary, you will see that   
   > > > the first definition given is simply "thinking that X is true". We all   
   > > > think many things about the universe, and except for closed systems of   
   > > > logic such as arithmetic, all assertions are provisional. This is not   
   > > > the same as believing something because it gives emotional   
   > > > satisfaction. Like you, I find this way of "thinking" apalling, yet   
   > > > acknowledge many seem to do it.   
   > > >   
   > > > "Believing in" a value or worldview or action is thinking that it is   
   > > > worthwhile, worth committing to. This is the second definition for   
   > > > "belief". ("I believe in Jesus!" "I believe children should be seen   
   > > > and not heard.") I think your emotional response (or, "I believe your   
   > > > emotional response") is a conditioned reaction to the fundamentalists   
   > > > propensities for conflating the two meanings.   
   > > >   
      
   [continued in next message]   
      
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    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)