XPost: sci.psychology.psychotherapy, alt.consciousness, talk.origins   
   From: mightymartianca@hotmail.com   
      
   Uncle Davey wrote:   
      
      
      
   >   
   > Well, I'm not gonna give you your "evidence". I will not, would not and   
   > cannot. Something other than evidence is needful here.   
      
   If that is standard you wish to base a world view on, be my guest.   
      
   >   
   > You think there should be evidence, but if that were so it would negate the   
   > very gospel and the point of salvation by faith.   
      
   I don't really even see a point as to why an infinite, all-powerful   
   being would even require such a test.   
      
   > You come from a salvation   
   > by works religion background,   
      
   I don't even see the point as to why any infinite, all-powerful being   
   would require good works from his creations either.  What possible   
   difference could it make to an entity so far above us in any every   
   conceivable way?   
      
   >from which your quest for evidence is very   
   > rational and understandable,   
      
   Then you should understand why I won't accept your say-so, or the say-so   
   of the Apostle Paul.   
      
   >but please understand that for the other   
   > alternative way of salvation, that of faith in Christ's death and not our   
   > works, to be valid, then the alternative, scientific version of events just   
   > HAS TO BE MORE CREDIBLE.   
      
   Science has nothing to do with spiritual salvation.  As you readily   
   admit there is no evidence for any of this, then it has nothing to do   
   with science, and certainly isn't an alternative.   
      
   > All I can then do is show you things that your   
   > system has no real answer for, such as the genesis of chlorophyll,   
      
   Ah yes, the invokation of magical solutions for problems we may not have   
   answers to yet.  You do know what happens to a god of the gaps, Davey.   
   As knowledge increases, he just keeps shrinking.   
      
   > such as   
   > the enormity of the likelihood against your even existing in the first place   
   > under your system, such as the absolute absence of signs of other planetary   
   > lifeforms,   
      
   This is nothing more than an argument from incredulity.  I don't invoke   
   magic every time I can't explain something.   
      
   > such as the fact that by evolution language should have had a   
   > monogenesis whereas the extant forms point to a polygenesis that the Babel   
   > account can explain better than any extant paper,   
      
   Your Babel myth is yet again nothing more than an invokation of magic to   
   fill in a gap in our knowledge.  I'm not impressed.   
      
   > such as the correlation   
   > between generational times and number of species in a genus, in my most   
   > recent hypothesis, hailed as the first attempt at science by a creationist   
   > on this board.   
      
   Save that if you invoke a supernatural creator, it isn't science any   
   more by definition, Davey.   
      
   > All these things only stack up to things that will help you   
   > see your system doesn't have all the answers, and you take it on faith just   
   > as much as I do mine.   
      
   Save that the scientific approach to studying nature actually has the   
   capacity to answer the questions, while simply invoking magic sky gods   
   answers nothing at all.   
      
   >   
   > It's my heart's desire for you that you might finally take the birthright of   
   > salvation by faith in Christ that watchtower perverted for you and robbed   
   > you of.   
      
   I would suggest you find another project.  I will only disappoint you.   
   I don't need salvation, don't believe sin even exists, and I find even   
   the tamest version of Yahweh to be a right nasty being who, even if he   
   did exist, would find little but contempt from me, poor, insignificant   
   creation that you allege I am.   
      
   I have analyzed other forms of Christianity, and found them as bankrupt   
   from point of view as the JWs.  Your omphalism, Catholicism, and a whole   
   gammut of Christian theology are as outrageous as any quote-mine out of   
   a JW anti-evolution handbooks.  If you insist on this silly project of   
   yours, then I'll be blunt about it.  You can provide no evidence for   
   your god, or for salvation.  What you conflate with rational   
   observation, nonsense like the Babel story, is nothing more than a   
   textbook example of a god of the gaps argument, and you're right, my   
   mind is closed to that.  If you have actual evidence, then provide it.   
   Explanations without evidence are, at best, interesting mental   
   experiments, and at worst, simply ways to try to shore up your position   
   without having to do any of the heavy lifting of science.   
      
   You are under the mistaken belief that I became an atheist to screw my   
   religious past.  Nothing could be further from the truth.  I became an   
   atheist because I sincerely do not accept the existence of Yahweh, and   
   can, from my position, readily see that the stories about him that the   
   ancient Hebrews recorded are no different than the stories recorded by   
   the ancient Mesopotamians, the Greeks, the Egyptians, the Aztecs and the   
   Hindus.  Given the choices lined up before me, your religion seems no   
   more necessary to my existence than any other.  So I choose the null   
   hypothesis, that your claims simply aren't true, unless you can provide   
   evidence that they are.   
      
   --   
   Aaron Clausen   
   mightymartianca@hotmail.com   
      
   "My illness is due to my doctor's insistence that I drink milk, a whitish   
   fluid they force down helpless babies." - WC Fields   
      
   --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05   
    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)