XPost: alt.postmodern
From: Alienthe@hotmail.com
Kevin Calder wrote:
> In message <3FE4EAE6.1060707@hotmail.com>, Alienthe
> writes
>> Kevin Calder wrote:
>
>
>>> [Another resurrection. Actually I make a point of not replying to
>>> alienthe's until at least 8 months after he posts them :)]
>
>> With the upcoming holiday season my replies might be on
>> the same time scale too...
>
> I find that reading alt.cp at these low frequencies helps to make it
> look busy.
I hope to get broadband soon; that might increase my frequency...
>>>> From: Alienthe (Alienthe@hotmail.com)
>>>> Subject: Re: Cyberpunk vs. Postmodernism
>>>> Date: 2003-04-14 14:42:02 PST
>
>>>> Kevin Calder wrote:
>>>> alienthe@hotmail.com writes
>
>>>> [snip]
>>>
>>> [Snip of sokal throwing marx bros. style pies in pomo faces]
>
>>> > Groucho had a sense of humor, does Derrida? Or the other POMOs?
>>> > Just to be clear: I am thinking of intentional humor here.
>
> Where do you find the intention? In the Marx Bros. intending to make
> the audience interpret their actions as humorous, or in the audience
> intending to enjoy the humour?
I would say it is both; the Marx Brothers making a living of their
style of humour, and the audience who paid to be entertained. It might
then be more POMO to point out that the audience paid Victor Borge
NOT to play his piano.
> Im not sure that it matters, but if you want to be specific about which
> kind of humour you are thinking of, then I want to specifically know
> what you mean.
>
>>> Sokal clearly had a pretty pomo sense of humor, wouldn't you say?
>
>> I am not sure if it is late POMO or early Post-POMO. Still I
>> would agree there is something here. If we go sufficiently
>> retro will we reach plain modernism?
>
> I'm not sure if that's how it works, or even if it works at all. It
I thought that was one of the very few things one could never say
in a POMO world. Shurely workage would be subject to interpretation?
Right?
> wouldn't help us much if it did though, Modernism is every bit as
> slippery, if not more, than pomoism, IMHO.
After POMO made itself known there has been less talk of Modernism.
Is there for instance a newsgroup called alt.modernism?
>>> In fact I hereby claim Sokal's work as postmodernism's greatest triumph!
>>> Refute my claim if you dare!
>
>> I won't refute, rather point out that the pomies seem to
>> sneer at their greatest achievement.
>
> I'm still not sure I know for sure who the pomies are, but I can imagine
> the sorts of people you mean, and I expect that they do sneer at Sokal.
> That said I have never read a critique of Sokal, let alone a sneering
> article.
Where is Omar when you need him?
> I recently ordered a copy of 'Intellectual Impostures', any one read
> it? I also ordered a new paper copy of Fashionable Nonsense, but for
> some reason my bookshop couldn't get it here in the UK and had to send
> to the US for it. Quite surprising really. The UK chapter of the
> sneering pomies brigade must have broke into the store room and burned
> them!
So that is where Omar was!
>>> And pomoism is well known for validating humour, parody and pastiche,
>
>> It does?
>
> Maybe not well known then.
>
> However, if you were to ask me (and I should know) to pick out, from a
Just curious here, just how should you know?
> selection of poems, the ones that i thought were the most pomo, I would
> start by looking for the funny poems. I generally find that pomo-poetry
> is generally pretty humorous, which I attribute to a reaction against
> the grumpy self seriousness (my reaction, or the poets, whatever you
> prefer) of 'Modern' poetry.
>
> Try, uh, Tom Raworth, Susan Howe, Paul Muldoon (particularly Immram) or
> James Fenton. IMHO they are all very funny.
>
> I realise that by admitting that I think that some poetry is funny that
> I run the risk of looking like the English teacher that laughs at the
> jokes in Shakespeare productions when on school outings to the theatre,
> but... ah well...
Ah, that kind of humour. I have just finished the Tempest and a
number of comments on it and it seems to be full of people
congratulating themselves with the cleverness in determining the
alleged jokes. The word "natural" appears to be a trigger word
to start laughing.
It is amazing how the fun evaporates under scrutiny.
>>> which tend to be marginalised by other standards and more generally
>>> its so damned sceptical about everything that it can't possibly take
>>> itself to seriously, unlike every other approach to appraising
>>> literature I think of.
>
>> I can agree that humor has these qualities and more but as
>> for POMO I am not sure. WmG, to bring this writhing thread
>> briefly close to things cyberriffic,
>
> We are on topic now? Crap.
Quoting Keanu Reeves: Whoa!
>> seems to be regarded
>> as highly POMO and claims himself to have a sense of humor
>> that he also feels is under-appreciated. The POMO-humor
>> connection does not appear to me to be a direct one.
>
> I'm not sure what it would take to convince you, but as far the literary
> criticism record is concerned I think you will find that for a lot of
> critics one of the defining characteristics of pomo literature is that
> it rejects the marginalisation of linguistic 'play' and often engages in
> such 'play' usually in the form of humour, pastiche or parody. Pre-pomo
> literary critics didn't rate humorous literature very highly at all and
> seriousness was generally privileged.
It seems to be that irony is what they seize on, to the point
of strangling the fun. Some of the online POMO magazines show
a level of puns, quality as well as quantity, similar to tabloids
but unrivalled in terms of obviousness. Somehow I get the feeling
the authors of these literary atrocities congratulate themselves
on their inventiveness.
What rates as serious has changed a lot I hear; Shakespeare
was apparently most appreciated for his comedies in his time
while now tragedies is all the rage. Personally I blame the
70's for this. POMO or no POMO, humour doesn't rate that high
everywhere still, and with the passing of Astrid Lindgren it
was pointed out that also children's books had not been
sufficiently appreciated by professional appreciaters. Perhaps
Post-POMO will see to that.
> It might take a while but I could probably knock together a reading list
> if you are interested, though I imagine that you already have more
> reading lists than you have time for!
My reading list could fill a library but your inputs might
of course still be interesting. Food for a FAQ? An update
to the alt.postmodern FAQ?
>>> >> And if the Emperor has no clothes then what it suggests to me is
>>> that
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