From: ghostGARBAGE@bitstreamnetMOREGARBAGE.com   
      
   In article <5Gb48eJMrkOBFwp7@cableinet.co.uk>,   
    Kevin Calder  wrote:   
      
   > In message   
   > ,   
   > ghost  writes   
   > >In article ,   
   > > johnnyx  wrote:   
   >   
   > >> In article  >> central.dca.giganews.com>, ghostGARBAGE@bitstreamnetMOREGARBAGE.com   
   > >> says...   
   >   
   > >> > the short version:   
   >   
   > >> > If a simulation is in everyway indistinguishable from the real thing,   
   > >> > what's the difference in the end results?   
   >   
   > >> the difference is an internal phenomena which is entierly unprovable..   
   > >> but u know from personal expierence just how important it is.   
   >   
   > >and if it's unprovable how do we know the quality does or does not exist   
   > >within any given entity?   
   >   
   > The way that you *know* about subjective things (your opinions,   
   > thoughts, feelings e.t.c.) should be distinguished from the way that you   
   > *know* about objective things.  Subjective knowledge isn't really   
   > provable.   
   >   
   > thanks,   
      
   Objective things aren't really provable either - reference the   
   discussion regarding Gravity and whether or not it actually exists.   
      
   There is no way to objectively compare anything since we can't get   
   outside our own system.   
      
   On the other hand - getting back to the Shuffler and the Room and the   
   knowledge of Chinese:   
      
   All languages are a base set of rules use to combine various symbols   
   (aplha, picto, etc..) in an order that conveys information from one   
   party to another. e.g. both parties have to agree that a exact ordering   
   of the symbols means the same thing to both of them.   
      
   If you give the Shuffler the rules to manipulate a language and the   
   Shuffler comes back with a meaningful (from our perspective) answer why   
   does it not know Chinese?   
      
   Is it because we have no way of telling if it understood what it sent   
   back?   
   But then the same could be said of anyone you have a discussion with -   
   they might send back a meaningful symbol anrangement from your POV but   
   how do you know they understood what they sent back? You take it for   
   granted in most cases, why do suddenly stop taking it for granted with   
   the Shuffler?   
      
      
   ghost   
   ~/~u forget the power of the monkey nugget to regulate brute reality. -alias~/~   
       www.accanthology.com ~/~ www.bitstreamnet.com ~/~ www.aliceandarthur.net   
                              everyday. wake up. burn.   
      
   --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05   
    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)