ekrodomos.net> ab33bf3f   
   From: joss@nospampleasewerebritish.nekrodomos.net   
      
   On Thu, 30 Oct 2003 01:30:39 -0800, FixinDixon wrote:   
      
   >> > if you don't like the global government thing then join people and   
   >> > planet or some other group and go and protest at the next G8 summit.   
   >> > i think the world is in a shocking state, but have a sneaking   
   >> > suspicion that it has always been on the brink of collapse and just   
   >> > manages to keep tripping along anyway. still, something big happening   
   >> > would be good. (collapse of the US economy... *crosses fingers*.   
   >> > still, i suppose the formation of the   
   >> >  EU superstate that's going on is something big to look back on).   
   >>   
   >>   
   > Joss   
   >   
   > The presence of an object within any environment is necessitated by   
   > factors controlled for within the environment.  For example, a tree in a   
   > forest is there becuase   
   > a) a man planted it or   
   > b) nature took it's course and a seed grew there.   
   >   
   > The presence of any movement/culture/political whatsit, such as the   
   > cyberpunk subculture, is necessitated by the members seeking to voice   
   > their opinions and using the movement/culture/political whatsit as a   
   > medium.   
      
   Sure. No disagreements here so far. Except possibly that the whole tree   
   thing was a bit unnecessary.   
      
   > I accept that the cyberpunk subculture is merged pretty heavily with the   
   > Goth/rock/new metal/skate/alternative culture and all the groups are   
   > basically disenfranchised young kids with an attitude, looking to stamp   
   > their own individuality on the world.  There are of course adults who   
   > act as mentors for these kids, but, as you say, they do fade away.  But   
   > the subculture doesn't seem to have achieved very much - the hackers   
   > have gained notoriety, the cryptos are doing their thing and the ravers   
   > are still partying on (I am 21, I know raves arn't THAT popular anymore   
   > but by ravers I mean the crowd who party at night, sleep during the day,   
   > maybe go to work).  But what has been the end product?   
      
   Most of my friends?   
      
   > To take an example from the literature: Hiro Protagonist from   
   > Stephenson's Snow Crash.  If Hiro is to be considered 'cyberpunk', then,   
   > according to the above posts, he would just be out for his own thing.   
   > His friend Da5id gets fried.  Hiro gets pissed and goes after those that   
   > did it.  Why?  Because of revenge or a desire to help humanity? Probably   
   > the later.   
      
   Kind of, In Snow Crash he's out against it at first because it only   
   affects hackers (in the coding sense, although I suppose that usually   
   means in the popular sense as well), which is something he happens to be.   
   I mean, he doesn't want the whole hacker world destroyed and all his   
   friends gone. The morality/saving the world bit is something he's kind of   
   led into. Before Snow Crash appears in the narrative he's very much out   
   for himself. He's doing pizza delivery to get money, not protesting   
   because he doesn't like the way that America has gone.   
      
   > Why does the skater break her mum's computer at the end (I haven't read   
   > the book in a while and have forgotten where I put it and have forgotten   
   > names - apologies)?  Is it   
      
   Y.T. (Yours Truly)   
      
   > to protect her mum for her mother's benefit or her own benefit? In both   
   > cases, the end product is an altruistic goal, both parties wanting to   
   > better their own part of the world in whatever way they can.   
      
   Well, yes. Looking out for yourself can help other people in the process.   
   But YT smashing her mother's monitor doesn't necessarily mean that she was   
   out to save the world. (I mean, she was, but that's not important.) She   
   just didn't want her mother turned into a Sumerian-spouting loon. I think   
   that your motives are more important than your actions in this situation.   
   If you do something for your own good then it may help other people, but   
   it's whether you will always do stuff to help other people that makes the   
   difference.   
      
   Oh, and the fact that it was "something she'd always wanted to do" (if I   
   recall correctly) probably helped. Plus, she wasn't exactly risking   
   anything by throwing a paperweight at a monitor. It's not like she had to   
   fight off twenty assorted big cats to save a complete stranger.   
      
   Still... I confess that I'm slightly confused as to what you are trying to   
   say so far.   
      
   > Is the cyberpunk subculture, under that definition, cyberpunk?  If the   
   > end goal is to change the world for the better (or indeed to change it   
   > at all), what are the cyberpunks doing to change it?  And why would a   
   > cyberpunk fade away if their goals have not become a reality?   
      
   I'm not entirely sure which definition you mean. Given that cyberpunk is   
   based around the characters from cyberpunk novels/films then we often see   
   a character who is initially out just for themselves and is forced into   
   helping the wider world. They then tend to develop some morals so that we   
   like them more and go on to save the world. Off the top of my head (and   
   apologizing for only using mainstream/popular stuff) we have Case from   
   Neuromancer, Johnny from Johnny Mnemonic (especially the film) and Neo in   
   the Matrix fitting this profile.   
      
   Plus, I didn't say that cyberpunks fade away. I think that in a sense they   
   become more powerful than you could possible imagine. Oh wait, that's   
   Obi-wan. Seriously, I think that cyberpunks just stop dressing strangely   
   and being shouty about it. I think that they become "respectable" and go   
   into the systems and work for the better there. It's certainly what I   
   intend to do. (After finishing my PhD and spending a few years being a   
   ski-bum/mountain biker/traveller. And an astronaut. And a train driver.   
   And a detective.)   
      
   I will say, though, that I think that a lot of people in the cyberpunk   
   movement (loose and somewhat dead as that may be) are in it because they   
   think it's cool, not to try and change the world for the better.   
      
   > FixinDixon   
      
   > PS - The collapse of the American economy will never happen unless: 1)   
   > All 3rd world debt is forgotten.  The US economy is heavily reliant on   
   > those debts, as is that of the UK.   
      
   Oh, I don't know. I liked Bruce Sterling's idea of the Chinese making all   
   Western intellectual property free and available on their nets. That would   
   cripple a LOT of things. Loved that idea.   
      
   > 2) Various environmental reforms, such as those proposed by the Kyoto   
   > protocol (NOT ratified by the US and Australia), are accepted in the US,   
   > or are forced upon them.  The US economy is heavily based on industry,   
   > and an emissions reduction would hit them very hard indeed.   
      
   True. But I can't see that there are many things that could force the US   
   to do anything. No-one has any real backbone in the international   
   community. Although the EU privacy laws forcing the US to adopt SafeHarbor   
   are quite encouraging. Here's hoping that the software patent situation   
   isn't repealed in the EU.   
      
   Plus, it would be nice if someone stepped up and made them agree to some   
      
   [continued in next message]   
      
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