From: vagans@eanna.net
On 6 Nov 2003, FixinDixon wrote:
> Sourcerer wrote:
> > > FixinDixon wrote:
>
> > > This is an exercise on everybody who posts here. Assuming that the CP
> > > subculture is based on characters and acts from CP books,
> >
> > This is seriously wrong. Cyberpunk culture derives from the Cyberpunk
> > Movement in sf -- from the authors, who were radical and revolutionary
> > within the context of sf, not the characters in the stories they wrote,
> > and they were either part of, or at least very interested in, the
> > phreaking culture that developed in the Yippies, as well as the hi tech
> > variant of hippies (the EFF embodies a lot of that).
>
> The CP culture derives from the CP Movement in SF - fine. The CP
> movement is based on the authors - that HAS to be wrong.
The "CP Movement in SF" was called The Cyberpunk Movement. It published
Cheap Truth. Probably 60% of it was Bruce Sterling. If there is another
cyberpunk movement, you'll have to identify it before we can discuss it.
> Granted,
> they wrote the books, but I don't see anyone directly quoting CP
> 'speeches' given by Gibson et al, but rather discussing his books. If
> Gibson et al had given talks about CP and the nature of it (they must
> have at one convention or another), then why arn't you lot talking
> about what they said? Answer - because the only COMMON source of
> information is in the books they wrote, and it is this common source
> that the Movement and culture is based on.
You may have not have seen such discussions, but they have taken place
here. (I should also mention the logical dissonance above: "The CP
movement is based on the authors - that HAS to be wrong" and "...the
only COMMON source of information is in the books they wrote" -- but
first you have to identify a cyberpunk movement for us.
There were a number of movements that directly influenced cyberpunk.
I've mentioned some. I can point to their organizations, publications,
spokespersons, actions, history etc etc -- the things that indicate a
'movement'. If there is such a thing for cyberpunk outside of the
science fiction one, I am not aware of it (excluding the various bored
dorm dweebs and their manifestos. There are, of course, net.kooks who
have claimed to lead a cp movement).
The notion of a cyberpunk movement is imaginary. To assert there is such
a thing obscures the important question why there isn't a cyberpunk
movement, considering the intense movement orientation of its
influences. The fact that alt.cyberpunk.movement is a ghost town and has
been so since it was newgrouped is telling.
> We are also
> > descended from some explosive developments in 70s punk. This newsgroup
> > has been around for 16 years.
>
> Purely as an academic point, how many "generations" of Cyberpunks have
> passed through?
In alt.cp? Three, by my count. alt.cp was newgrouped in 1987. The 2nd
generation started to show up around 93-94, the 3rd around 1999 (they
overlap, of course). The Well had a cyberpunk group even earlier . I was
on that group and when The Well got a usenet feed, I found and switched
to alt.cp. By "generation" I don't refer to age, but to sequence in
time.
> > > it stands to
> > > reason that anyone who posts here should base their outlook on the
> > > common views of the CP books.
> >
> > But that would mean taking on the outlook of WG or NS or BS, as
> > expressed in the products they produce to earn their livings, as a
> > philosophy of life or something.
>
> That's exactly what is happening by reading the books and adopting the
> thought styles. You yourself say:
>
> > There are too many Bobbies and Hiros and not enough Mollies and Juanitas
> > in real life (I am myself, a Laney).
I was a "Laney" before WG imagined Idoru. If he and I had known each
other way back when, he might have based something of Laney on me. My
point is that the characters in classic cp fiction were not born de novo
in the writers minds, but were based on individuals and 'types' that
already existed mostly in the pre-cyberpunk movements I've mentioned.
I can add, although I am sworn to secrecy still, that alt.cp had
influence on at least one mainstream cyberpunk novel.
Real life comes first, then the fiction. You have it backwards.
You may be unfamiliar with non-fiction cyberpunk. Have you read Cheap
Truth, Interzone, or any books about cyberpunk? Are you familiar with
YIPL, TAP, the EFF, FSF, what went on in MIT's media lab, the history of
hacking, phreaking etc etc? I could put together a reading list.
We would probably agree that an interest in classic 80s cp fiction is
definitive for having an interest in alt.cp and cyberpunk generally.
Cyberpunk's literature DNA is dominant, without doubt.
As for
> But my point is that if we are all
> sickened by it all, we should want to change it.
Maybe it was 1997 or thereabouts in a similar thread, I did a Nexis
search and got around 550 hits returned. The search was for cyberpunk
authors and dystopia (what you mean by "sickened"). In no interview, no
quotation by any of the authors did they indicate they thought their
work was dystopic or a depiction of a sickened social condition. The
notion was always inserted by the interviewer or reviewer. No author
(WG, BS, PC etc) would agree to any such characterization of their work.
The only classic cp that is deliterately 'dystopic' is the Eclipse
trilogy, by John Shirely, imo -- Brunner's stuff, too, if you consider
his books cp (I don't).
The indications are you read the books with a different understanding
than their authors have about them or what they intended, and, as well,
the general opinion about them in this group.
So, it seems, we are not all "sickened by it".
--
(__) Sourcerer
/(<>)\ O|O|O|O||O||O The world hadn't ever had so many
\../ |OO|||O|||O|O moving parts or so few labels.
|| OO|||OO||O||O -- mlo
--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)
|
