ekrodomos.net> d29c8dd4   
   From: joss@nospampleasewerebritish.nekrodomos.net   
      
      
      
   > Maybe it was 1997 or thereabouts in a similar thread, I did a Nexis   
   > search and got around 550 hits returned. The search was for cyberpunk   
   > authors and dystopia (what you mean by "sickened"). In no interview, no   
   > quotation by any of the authors did they indicate they thought their   
   > work was dystopic or a depiction of a sickened social condition. The   
   > notion was always inserted by the interviewer or reviewer. No author   
   > (WG, BS, PC etc) would agree to any such characterization of their work.   
   >   
   > The only classic cp that is deliterately 'dystopic' is the Eclipse   
   > trilogy, by John Shirely, imo -- Brunner's stuff, too, if you consider   
   > his books cp (I don't).   
   >   
   > The indications are you read the books with a different understanding   
   > than their authors have about them or what they intended, and, as well,   
   > the general opinion about them in this group.   
   >   
   > So, it seems, we are not all "sickened by it".   
      
   I don't strongly disagree with a lot of what you have said here, (well,   
   not enough to write about it) but I have to disagree with the last few   
   paragraphs. With the statement, but also with your argument.   
      
   Firstly, I believe that a large amount of cyberpunk literature (certainly   
   Gibson) is dystopic. To rely on a time honoured (if somewhat tedious)   
   approach to this sort of discussion, here is merriam-webster's definition   
   of "dystopia":   
      
   "an imaginary place where people lead dehumanized and often fearful lives"   
      
   (interestingly enough, the dictionary does not list "dystopic")   
      
   Looking at a large amount of the cyberpunk literature we often see worlds   
   where the "humanity" of individuals is shunted aside to make room for pure   
   survival in a world where the majority live (to pluck a random phrase out   
   of the air) "often fearful lives". Many cyberpunk characters are notably   
   dehumanized, wrapped up in their own private concerns with little or no   
   empathy or sympathy for the world around them. (Often this tends to lessen   
   during the course of a novel in order to make us like the characters more,   
   but that is mainly irrelevant,)   
      
   I would argue that cyberpunk novels (in general, and with a nod to obvious   
   exceptions) are generally, therefore, dystopic.   
      
   In a sense this reminds me of a long, ongoing discussion I had with a   
   friend concerning Orwell's "1984". I argued that, given that most people   
   were happy, 1984 was not dystopic and was approaching utopic. I eventually   
   changed my opinion to relate to arguably "higher" notions such as freedom   
   and underlying happiness rather than a fake control of people's minds.   
   Notably, though, Winston does love Big Brother at the end of the book.   
      
   Beyond this, I'd argue with the way that you make the point concerning   
   authors. You searched for cyberpunk authors and "dystopia" and found no   
   results where the authors indicated that they found their worlds dystopic.   
   This does not prove either that they thought otherwise, or that such   
   statements were never made. Personally, I would have thought it so   
   fundamental to these novels that mentioning it would be unnecessary (I   
   imagine that you wouldn't find many results where the authors make a point   
   of mentioning that characters appear to wear clothes in the books, but   
   they do tend to.)   
      
   For that reason I would challenge (in the nicest possible way) that "No   
   author (WG, BS, PC etc) would agree to any such characterization of their   
   work." Without a statement to the contrary from any/every author included   
   in that list, I can't accept that point.   
      
   Beyond that, I would also argue that just because an author doesn't view   
   his world as dystopic does not make that true. I have different views to   
   many cyberpunk authors (I assume) and surely one of the joys of reading a   
   book is that I am free to interpret it in any way I choose. To   
   categorically state that a book, indeed a genre, is not dystopic is   
   quite... presumptuous. The only way in which I would accept this is if you   
   refer to some standardized definition of dystopic and clearly showed that   
   the books could not feasibly be rationalized with this definition. With   
   the definition of "dystopic" shown above, I don't believe that you could   
   do this.   
      
   Just what I was thinking.   
      
   Joss   
      
   --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05   
    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)