ekrodomos.net> d29c8dd4   
   From: vagans@eanna.net   
      
   A dystopia digression.  I really would like your opinion on the   
   Subject of this thread, though.   
      
   On Thu, 6 Nov 2003, joss wrote:   
      
   >   
   >   
   >    
   >   
   > > Maybe it was 1997 or thereabouts in a similar thread, I did a Nexis   
   > > search and got around 550 hits returned. The search was for cyberpunk   
   > > authors and dystopia (what you mean by "sickened"). In no interview, no   
   > > quotation by any of the authors did they indicate they thought their   
   > > work was dystopic or a depiction of a sickened social condition. The   
   > > notion was always inserted by the interviewer or reviewer. No author   
   > > (WG, BS, PC etc) would agree to any such characterization of their work.   
   > >   
   > > The only classic cp that is deliterately 'dystopic' is the Eclipse   
   > > trilogy, by John Shirely, imo -- Brunner's stuff, too, if you consider   
   > > his books cp (I don't).   
   > >   
   > > The indications are you read the books with a different understanding   
   > > than their authors have about them or what they intended, and, as well,   
   > > the general opinion about them in this group.   
   > >   
   > > So, it seems, we are not all "sickened by it".   
      
   Correction: Not 1997, but 1995. I don't recollect what the search terms   
   were. The thread was I Rest My Case, but I cannot find it on Google. My   
   collection includes 8 follow-ups to it, but not the first one describing   
   the search.   
      
   > I don't strongly disagree with a lot of what you have said here, (well,   
   > not enough to write about it) but I have to disagree with the last few   
   > paragraphs. With the statement, but also with your argument.   
   >   
   > Firstly, I believe that a large amount of cyberpunk literature (certainly   
   > Gibson) is dystopic. To rely on a time honoured (if somewhat tedious)   
   > approach to this sort of discussion, here is merriam-webster's definition   
   > of "dystopia":   
   >   
   > "an imaginary place where people lead dehumanized and often fearful lives"   
      
   Sounds like a job. 8-)   
      
   > (interestingly enough, the dictionary does not list "dystopic")   
      
   In the 19th century the term just meant the oppposite of utopian, where   
   'utopian' described someone's pov. 'Utopian' had currency in the 19th   
   century, and critics of utopians got clever and invented the word   
   'dystopian' so they could said things like "Oh, a Utopian, eh? More like   
   'dys-topian', imnsvho, Hehe".   
      
   Then, in the 1960s, when lit classes in sf became trendy, it was a   
   no-brainer to compare utopian and dystopian stories, the dystopian ones   
   being Brave New World and 1984, neither of which are sf. There actually   
   was dystopic sf, especially from the 50s, but they weren't on the   
   reading list. Anyway 'dystopia' gained currency in sf.   
      
   But writers don't just by happenstance write a utopian or dystopian   
   story. They plan it that way. I can find no evidence that the books we   
   are referencing were written with such a plan in mind.   
      
   Even Eclipse -- the future it portrays for us is loathsome -- is not in   
   the same league with 1984 since the good guys win. There are no good   
   guys in dystopias (nobody here thinks Winston or Julia in 1984 were good   
   guys, to they?), no winning, no happy endings, not even unhappy endings.   
   "He loved Big Brother" -- there is just nothing like that in classic 80s   
   cp stories even with neural implants and all. Well, maybe Armitage a   
   little.   
      
   > Looking at a large amount of the cyberpunk literature we often see worlds   
   > where the "humanity" of individuals is shunted aside to make room for pure   
   > survival in a world where the majority live (to pluck a random phrase out   
   > of the air) "often fearful lives". Many cyberpunk characters are notably   
   > dehumanized, wrapped up in their own private concerns with little or no   
   > empathy or sympathy for the world around them. (Often this tends to lessen   
   > during the course of a novel in order to make us like the characters more,   
   > but that is mainly irrelevant,)   
      
   Petty criminals and media celebs often lead fearful lives.   
      
   "Many cyberpunk characters are notably dehumanized,...". Which   
   characters do you have in mind?   
      
   "...wrapped up in their own private concerns with little or no empathy   
   or sympathy for the world around them".  Wait a second...how many novels   
   have characters who aren't wrapped up? Their own private concerns are   
   often what novels are about. What sorts of expressions of empathy or   
   sympathy expressed by characters in novels are you using as a standard?   
      
   I mean how ought Case or Marva or Allie or Bobby or Turner or YT or   
   Angie have been written in order to not be dystopically dehuman   
   characters by your standard?   
      
   > I would argue that cyberpunk novels (in general, and with a nod to obvious   
   > exceptions) are generally, therefore, dystopic.   
   >   
   > In a sense this reminds me of a long, ongoing discussion I had with a   
   > friend concerning Orwell's "1984". I argued that, given that most people   
   > were happy, 1984 was not dystopic and was approaching utopic. I eventually   
   > changed my opinion to relate to arguably "higher" notions such as freedom   
   > and underlying happiness rather than a fake control of people's minds.   
   > Notably, though, Winston does love Big Brother at the end of the book.   
      
   There is no way that 1984 cannot be dystopic, because Orwell intended to   
   achieve the dystopic vision to a well-done and absolute faretheewell and   
   he did. I like this definition of a dystopic world:  a world in which   
   one ought not to want to live. Anyone who would want to be in Winston's   
   or O'Brien's shoes...well, those are the sorts of people I tend to   
   avoid.   
      
   > Beyond this, I'd argue with the way that you make the point concerning   
   > authors. You searched for cyberpunk authors and "dystopia" and found no   
   > results where the authors indicated that they found their worlds dystopic.   
   > This does not prove either that they thought otherwise, or that such   
   > statements were never made.   
      
   That is true.   
      
   > Personally, I would have thought it so   
   > fundamental to these novels that mentioning it would be unnecessary (I   
   > imagine that you wouldn't find many results where the authors make a point   
   > of mentioning that characters appear to wear clothes in the books, but   
   > they do tend to.)   
      
   No, no. Utopia and Dystopia are boilerplate of the interviewer's and   
   reviewer's and critic's and sf lit class teacher's trade. It is the   
   subject of essays and theses. The question is most always asked. It's   
   like nature and nurture, body and soul etc. boilerplate.   
      
   > For that reason I would challenge (in the nicest possible way) that   
   > "No author (WG, BS, PC etc) would agree to any such characterization   
   > of their work." Without a statement to the contrary from any/every   
   > author included  in that list, I can't accept that point.   
      
      
   [continued in next message]   
      
   --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05   
    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)