From: Alienthe@hotmail.com
ghost wrote:
> In article ,
> Sourcerer wrote:
>>On Thu, 6 Nov 2003, ghost wrote:
>>>In article ,
>>> Sourcerer wrote:
>>>
>>
>>
>>>>The notion of a cyberpunk movement is imaginary. To assert there is such
>>>>a thing obscures the important question why there isn't a cyberpunk
>>>>movement, considering the intense movement orientation of its
>>>>influences. The fact that alt.cyberpunk.movement is a ghost town and has
>>>>been so since it was newgrouped is telling.
Any idea when it was newgrouped?
>>>I think the answer is why there isn't a cybeprun movement comes in the
>>>form of where those who contribute to this group come from - I'll just
>>>call us Cyberpunks and take the heat for it at the moment... esp. since
>>>I don't believe a "cyberpunk" really exists anywhere in real life.
>>>
>>>We're punks, technocrats, writers, admin geeks, hackers, phreaks,
>>>teachers, wage slaves, metal heads, goths, environmentalists, probably a
>>>neo-luddite or two even.
To me these newsgroups look like the places where art meets tech
and people think about it. The background of people here is one
of the most varied I have seen on Usenet News.
>>We each have inherited our own mix of cultural DNA from various forms
>>the counterculture movement has taken. The "motion" of the movement is
>>antagonistic to the culture it is a counter to. Most of the folks
>>looking for a movement in cyberpunk mean something like the Yippies,
>>whether they know it or not: outlaw techno-rebels working to bring
>>freedom and anarchism to this sickened society, hopefully while having
>>fun. This has never worked.
This place has always been interesting and fun to me; I
cannot complain. As for the outlaw techno-rebel; I have
seen some survivalists take an interest in Cyberpunk but
coudn't quite see the connection myself.
> and I'm glad, anarchism would probably put me out of a job, since I'm
> the Security business.
>
>
>>A very good reason why there is no cyberpunk movement is due to simply
>>geography. Movements are constructed. At specific times and places some
>>folks consciously set in motion something which catches a favorable
>>cultural wind and becomes a movement within the countercultural
>>movement. They lived in the same city, or even the same neighborhood, or
>>even the same apartment. The went to the same clubs and cafes. They knew
>>each other. Cyberpunk is not localized like that. There are no cyberpunk
>>bands playing in cyberpunk clubs, but there are punk and goth bands and
>>clubs. At least there were the last time I looked. For all I know, local
>>cyberpunk scenes have coalesced, but they've never caught a 'cultural
>>wind' and taken off to become movements we could become part of. It
>>could be such scenes were lame or it could be that the wind wasn't
>>blowing.
>
> I can agree to that
>
>
>>Early on it was believed that 'the net' would serve in the absence of
>>geographical closeness for the development of a cyberpunk movement. That
>>didn't work. What is left is alt.cyberpunk.
>
> and a fine leftover piece of thing it is!
Moreover it seems like it will always be here.
>>>We're so all over the board that we can't even agree on what Cyberpunk
>>>is, or even what books are CP in many cases. How can you form a
>>>"movement" of any nature without knowing what the movement is supposed
>>>to be? you can't.
>>>
>>It is odd. It's as if cyberpunk is this personal private thing that
>>can't be shared. We can agree to disagree and that's about it.
>
> can I disagree with that? Or should I agree? hmmm...
>
>
>>>And there IS NOT a "Cyberpunk Movement", never was in the real world
>>>sense of movement. The Movement, as it is labeled, was purely contained
>>>within the functions of Science Fiction writing and what was acceptable
>>>SF for the time, since it had, when CP became a term, become little more
>>>then Space Operas and Fantasy novels set in space (that's a more or less
>>>common concensus, there will always be exceptions to the rules
>>>somewhere).
>>>
>>And a lot of New Wave that was getting old and dreary. The Movement was
>>antagonistic towards the sf establishment. It's attitude, tactics, and
>>interests were countercultural. But it mostly ends there. No one in that
>>movement had any interest in representing a broader cyberpunk movement
>>that I know of. They weren't interested in creating or leading such a
>>thing.
>>
>
> With the possible exception of Bruce Sterling.
A few years ago he started the Viridian Movement which so
far hasn't resulted in much. His Dead Media Project is
also on the back burner.
>>I have a theory that countercultural movements develop and wane along
>>with the condition of the economy. The generational changes of
>>alt.cyberpunk align with changes in the broader economy. The 1st
>>generation changed to the 2nd after the recession of the early 90's, the
>>2nd to the 3rd after the dotcom bubble burst in 99-00.
The political landscape today looks somewhat similar to the
Thatcher-Reagan era the Movement originated in. Should we
expect a new revival soon? I am thinking of something more
than the Matrix trilogy. here.
>>The hippie and yippie movements emerged when the post-war boom ended in
>>the late 60s, the punks during the 70s deep recession that then
>>developed. 1966-1976 was the high point of the counterculture movement.
>>It was also the duration of the unravelling of the postwar economy.
>>
>>The Cyberpunk Movement came right after the recession of the early 80s.
>>If countercultural movements catch a cultural wind, it appears to blow
>>only when the economy is failing. Cyberpunk came to be during a rocky
>>economic period that appeared to be bad, but was in fact good. After
>>1993 it was explosively good. It happened to be good in ways that
>>aligned with the hi tech and even low life interests of cyberpunk. It is
>>hard to be antagonistic and counter towards a culture that seems to be
>>in process of making your dreams come true 8-)
>
> You know, I never really looked at it like that, but it makes some kind
> of sense.
>
> I can see it now, "Quick Mr. Mega-Corp, give me awesome tech really
> cheap - keep doing research to make it faster & cheaper while I tell
> everyone how evil you are!!" Heh ... I'm just curious as to where people
> think most advancements in technology will come from once they topple
> the MegaCorps in control of everything .. Seems to me to rail against
> the corporations in this day and age you'd have to be a neoluddite. It'd
> be the only logical move.
A lot of successful small high tech companies are founded by
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