From: bogus@mail.com   
      
   On 1 Dec 2003 04:28:03 -0800, u01mzb@abdn.ac.uk (FixinDixon) wrote:   
      
   >   
   >But some objective facts based on subjective experiences cannot be   
   >disproven, including logical truths.   
      
   Ah! we come to Go:del's Theorem. Except you twisted it inside out.   
      
   God:el's Theorem in it's simplest terms might be stated: "No system   
   can be proved when based upon unprovable assumptions or 'givens'".   
      
   It killed 'Matematical Philosophy'.   
      
   Assuming Go:del's proof was 'in the ballpark', there ain't no provable   
   'objective logic' nor can there be a provable subjective one. While it   
   is true that 'some subjective experience cannot be disproved' the   
   point of most "science' and / or 'philosophy' has been to 'prove'   
   things as 'facts' and add them to the common store of 'human'   
   knowledge. If you can't prove it you cannot add it to the 'holy   
   treasures' of science.   
      
   Our 'understanding' is a subjective reality. It fills our world with   
   objects we can understand. There are no 'wavicals' in the 'frige or   
   living Schro:edinger's Cats walking through the house yet we have a   
   whole branch of science that says these things are what 'objective   
   reality' is really made of.   
      
   We do not yet seem to be properly 'wired' to see the underlying   
   'program' -- the reality behind what we take as our subjective   
   experience.   
      
   To me that was a 'eureka' moment at the end of the first matrix movie:   
   Neo seeing the program and then his proving he understood it well   
   enough to manipulate it for his own benefit.   
      
   We are a long way from 'adapting' ourselves to see beyond our shared   
   subjectivity and finally seeing and using the 'object programming'   
   behind the curtains.   
      
   There is no "objective" universe. This is what Einstein hated about   
   the 'Quantum Universe' but so far no other explanation seems to 'fit   
   the facts' as have been sujectively collected.   
      
   For further thoughts along this line I suggest you contemplate the   
   following set-up for a thought experment:   
      
   We sit in a darkened theater. On the screen appears a shadow play. We   
   can neither see the source of light nor get behind the screen to see   
   the hidden reality. How can we 'know' the truth of 'the play', it's   
   physics, it's function and how it can be manipulated? Are you willing   
   to sit there and watch the play or are you drawn to understanding what   
   is really going on? The play implies something is not quite right   
   about reality. What are you going to do about it?   
      
   Now ghost can make red pill / blue pill allusions while I head off to   
   the reality of 'stupid user tricks.'   
      
   the ded 1   
      
   "A strong house is build upon a strong foundation. What are your   
   beliefs built upon?" - the book of reminders   
      
   --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05   
    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)