XPost: alt.buddha.short.fat.guy, alt.philosophy.taoism, alt.supp   
   rt.schizophrenia   
   From: fedora@fea.st   
      
   On Fri, 9 Jul 2021 11:54:08 -0400, ansaman  wrote:   
      
   >On 7/9/2021 8:18 AM, Noah Sombrero wrote:   
   >> On Fri, 9 Jul 2021 06:26:44 -0400, ansaman  wrote:   
   >>   
   >>> On 7/8/2021 11:44 PM, Noah Sombrero wrote:   
   >>>> On Thu, 8 Jul 2021 23:17:18 -0400, ansaman  wrote:   
   >>>>   
   >>>>> On 7/8/2021 6:34 PM, Noah Sombrero wrote:   
   >>>>>> As a matter of fact.  Civilization is an unnatural act.  That doesn't   
   >>>>>> mean that humans will stop trying to make it work.   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>> What makes it an unnatural act? Are you saying that   
   >>>>> man is not a natural phenomena? What do you base that on?   
   >>>>   
   >>>> The natural thing was that humans would be hunter gatherers.   
   >>>> Since leaving that behind, lots of other unnatural objections to   
   >>>> nature's way have come along, like wanting to eat but refusing to be   
   >>>> eaten (as much as possible).   
   >>>   
   >>> That is the right of the apex predator, totally natural. Man   
   >>> is the ultimate apex predator.   
   >>   
   >> Not when he is living in his natural role as hunter gatherer.  Also,   
   >> mosquitoes need to eat too.  Diseases are organisms that need to eat.   
   >> The only time an animal kills another naturally is to eat.   
   >   
   >That is absolutely untrue. Not even close to being true. Lions kill   
   >cubs of their harem's previous mates. Prairie dogs hunt down and kill   
   >ground squirrels.   
      
   Yes, animals have built in population control mechanisms, and can be   
   fiercely competitive if two species try to use nearly the same   
   habitat.  Not the same as what humans do.   
      
   >> Humans are dangerous animals, but there are others far better equipped   
   >> to be predators.  Humans are omnivores, not lions who must hunt.   
   >   
   >This sounds dangerously close to a values judgement rather   
   >than a scientific judgement. The record shows that humans   
   >are far more adept at killing than lions and indeed they enslave   
   >animals to kill at their leisure.   
      
   These days, that would be true.  But as a hunter gatherer?   
      
   >> Humans in groups can kill large herbivores like buffalos with pointy   
   >> sticks, but it is a dangerous undertaking.  Humans were not meant be   
   >> able to stand a distance away and kill buffalo with guns.   
   >   
   >You obviously have not heard of the bow and arrow that has been   
   >to stand a distance away and take down large prey.   
      
   An arrow being another kind of pointy stick.  Hunter gatherers had not   
   yet invented the high power, high accuracy bows that allow such   
   maneuvers as you describe.   
      
   >In fact, one of   
   >humans most effective means of predation is the run down. We pursue   
   >far faster animals for such a long time that they fall over from   
   >exhaustion.   
      
   Some predators can do that, perhaps.  Humans would want to wound it   
   first and then chase it.  Or chase a deer until it gets tired and the   
   hunter can get close enough for a better shot.  With his rifle.  That   
   provided, the hunter is stronger than the deer.  Wouldn't work for me.   
   You?   
      
   >> Meanwhile ecological systems, where the worm eats dead things in the   
   >> soil, birds eat the worms, cats eat the birds, cats die and feed the   
   >> worms, and everything that lives is in balance with everything else in   
   >> an endless cycle, are going away.  Humans don't like that, it is   
   >> messy.  Humans simply want to be the only ones here except for dog and   
   >> cat pets, maybe.  No diseases, no death, forever.  It is natural to   
   >> want that, but not to actually be able to do it.   
   >   
   >I guess you are something other than human. You get to declare   
   >what is natural even if not based on anything other than   
   >your value system   
      
   I think the archeological record of hunter gatherer life is not simply   
   a matter of my value system.   
      
   >and you point the finger as if you are not human, too.   
      
   Actually, I wasn't accusing.  I was showing how civilization is an   
   unnatural act.  And of course, I am not excused.  I also don't like   
   mosquitoes.   
      
   >I got bad news for you... there is no such thing   
   >as an individual human, you are part of the whole and its   
   >aggregate behavior.   
      
   This is true.  We all are responsible for what goes on.   
      
   Noah Sombrero   
      
   --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05   
    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)