From: slider@anashram.com   
      
   On Sat, 14 Aug 2021 13:12:26 +0100, o'Mahoney    
   wrote:   
      
   > On Sat, 14 Aug 2021 00:38:03 +0100, slider    
   > wrote:   
   >   
   >> gets more reasonable in the end wrote...   
   >>   
   >> (so am snipping all the useless personal crap...)   
   >>   
   >>>> my personal opinion (and am only speculating here) is that it's   
   >>>> actually   
   >>>> all the same thing albeit approached from different angles, thus   
   >>>> seemingly   
   >>>> producing different effects that people have then called/labeled one   
   >>>> thing   
   >>>> or another...   
   >>>   
   >>>> the practice of WILDing, however, reveals aspects of the whole thing   
   >>>> that   
   >>>> suggests it's all actually only the same effect/thing: an inbuilt   
   >>>> natural   
   >>>> ability to enter at-will and on demand into an altered state of   
   >>>> awareness   
   >>>> (you've even experienced it your self 3 or 4 times now so no need for   
   >>>> moi   
   >>>> to describe it) something which to all extents and purposes appears   
   >>>> like   
   >>>> being in a lucid dreaming state, the difference with WILDs being the   
   >>>> 'extra' options that are also available (such as there being a midway   
   >>>> point) that doesn't appear to be available via those others   
   >>>> forms/modes...   
   >>>> iow: WILDs in and of themselves are more revealing about the whole   
   >>>> nature   
   >>>> of lucid dreaming and states of altered awareness in general...   
   >>>   
   >>>> my personal feeling being to say/suggest that WILDs are the full monty   
   >>>> of   
   >>>> lucid dreaming wherein everything about it is revealed instead of   
   >>>> obscured... iow: WILD enough times deliberately and it all becomes   
   >>>> very   
   >>>> clear exactly what lucid dreaming actually is and means...   
   >>>   
   >>>> ### - even laberge didn't 'invent' WILDs, he only invented a modern   
   >>>> name   
   >>>> for a very old + known effect, i.e., he scientifically proved that   
   >>>> lucid   
   >>>> dreaming was a thing and waking dreams were part of it (dilds & wilds)   
   >>>> and   
   >>>> thus brought the whole subject out of occult literature and into the   
   >>>> scientific realm thus making it available to the general public for   
   >>>> the   
   >>>> first time...   
   >>>   
   >>>> all i've personally done is to add a little something to that (the use   
   >>>> of   
   >>>> hypnagogia to enter it + a small map of the midway point itself)   
   >>>   
   >>>> have never claimed it was new... in fact i've openly suggested it's   
   >>>> actually incredibly old :)   
   >>>   
   >>> i tend to think that dreaming (all  forms of dreaming) is like entering   
   >>> a library   
   >>> of preloaded pictures that somehow we access and it gets played in our   
   >>> head.   
   >>> Notice that the dream has a mind of its own until we get lucid or awake   
   >>> in the   
   >>> dream and then it can be altered.    But what or who set up the show?   
   >>> And don't   
   >>> say it was the dreamer as if it concocted all this stuff on the spot   
   >>> when you go to   
   >>> sleep.   There's never a shortage of dreams,   think of it.    Here i   
   >>> am   
   >>> a 73 year old   
   >>> fart and i'm still making shit up every night that i don't have a   
   >>> fucking clue about.   
   >>> They never make much sense.   For the most part you forget 98% by noon   
   >>> anyhow.   
   >>> IF mankind has been doing this drill for 100,000 years,  how come we   
   >>> are   
   >>> still   
   >>> dumb as a rug?    We don't learn very fast.    Here's the best line:   
   >>> "it was just a dream".   
   >>> Yeah useless as ever,  same as it ever was,  my ship will come in some   
   >>> day,   and Jesus/   
   >>> God will finally love and accept us.    Sure pal,   you keep dreaming   
   >>> that shit.   
   >>> no wonder shorty said "fuck god himself".     the best thing he ever   
   >>> said and it's useless.   
   >>   
   >> ### - methinks ordinary random dreams are us just still talking away to   
   >> ourselves while we're asleep, our imagination auto-spinning the various   
   >> scenarios which we then also react to as those thoughts play out, the   
   >> weirdness of which immediately clears up/goes-away the very moment one   
   >> becomes lucid...   
   >>   
   >> iow: that's the exact same kinds of random shit that's more or less   
   >> continually going through our minds all the time we're awake too, a   
   >> reflection of it, random musings about random things on & on like that   
   >> all   
   >> day long lol, this interspersed with occasional but rare moments of   
   >> lucidity before we again wander-off into mindless musings about crap   
   >> haha... a 24/7 condition   
   >>   
   >> get more lucid in our random dreams, however, and it has the knock-on   
   >> effect of producing more & more moments of similar/corresponding   
   >> lucidity   
   >> during the day too... which 'could' be useful...   
   >>   
   >> the main point being that lucid dreaming is thus a clue that a   
   >> corresponding lucidity is also available during waking as well, that   
   >> such   
   >> a thing exists to aim for and to experience...   
   >>   
   >> e.g., (and this is very old indeed) - what is the sound of one hand   
   >> clapping?   
   >>   
   >> the answer being: thought-less-ness, or, inner silence = lucidity of a   
   >> different order during waking...   
   >>   
   >> quite simples really :)   
   >   
   > Nope.  You're overcomplicating stuff here.   
   >   
   > Let's look at the facts.  We sleep to provide down time for the body   
   > to rejuvenate from the day's labours.  In lizard times, primordial   
   > times, ancient times, prehistoric times, the day's labours involved   
   > killing prey for food and avoiding being killed by predators for food.   
   >   
   > That's a fact.   
   >   
   > Part of the down time is/was to provide the brain, that most vital   
   > organ, with opportunity to stop thinking (about getting food an   
   > avoiding being food) so that buildup of amyloid on synapses and   
   > cognate stuff could be shed and removed by our brain lymphatic system,   
   > called the cerebrospinal fluid system.  Sleep is needed for this   
   > function to occur.   
   >   
   > Dreaming, that vital part of sleep, is a tremor of the brain which   
   > induces the removal of amyloid and other nasty proteins from the   
   > synapses into the CSF so the guck can be drained away and the brain   
   > refreshed and cleaned for another day's hard work killing food and   
   > avoiding being killed for food.   
   >   
   > Dreaming is random memories and artifacts woven into nothing special   
   > and nothing meaningful, simply to shake the synapses so that the   
   > clinging amyloids and so on can be removed and drained during the   
   > night.  Amyloid, when not adroitly and efficiently removed, becomes   
   > the bedrock of Alzheimer's Disease.   
   >   
   > Dreaming is nothing special and nothing meaningful. Any accidents   
   > which result in anything meaningful (such as Kekule's dream of the   
   > benzene ring) are just that, accidental.   
   >   
   > So as you say, Brian...   
   >   
   > Quite simples, really :)   
      
   ### - very simple heh, so simple in fact it's forcing a complete rewrite   
   of everything scientists currently 'think' they know about sleep &   
   dreaming, which perforce includes all of the above rationalisations ;)   
      
      
   [continued in next message]   
      
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