XPost: alt.society.liberalism, alt.atheism, talk.politics.guns   
   From: lunch@nofreelunch.us   
      
   On Sun, 19 May 2013 10:44:38 -0500, RD Sandman   
    wrote in alt.atheism:   
      
   >Free Lunch  wrote in   
   >news:nd2gp8tcq1si9udrkfhh6mglqbg7qdd96v@4ax.com:   
   >   
   >> On Sat, 18 May 2013 16:17:02 -0500, RD Sandman   
   >>  wrote in alt.atheism:   
   >>   
   >>>Free Lunch  wrote in   
   >>>news:rmnfp89epf3h5u777iq5ms6dujq3m721fa@4ax.com:   
   >>   
   >>   
   >> Please note:   
   >>   
   >>>>>>>> If, as W was, you are adding half a trillion a year to the debt,   
   >>>>>>>> it is much harder to come out of a recession with added   
   >>>>>>>> stimulus. W's deficits after 2002 were irresponsible.   
   >>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>Hmmmm, Bush's deficits were:   
   >>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>2000 -  236.4B  - Surplus (Left over from Clinton)   
   >>>>>>>2001 -  127.3B  - Surplus   
   >>>>>>>2002 -  157.8B  - Deficit   
   >>>>>>>2003 -  377.6B  - Deficit   
   >>>>>>>2004 -  413B    - Deficit   
   >>>>>>>2005 -  318B    - Deficit   
   >>>>>>>2006 -  248B    - Deficit   
   >>>>>>>2007 -  161B    - Deficit (Democrats now own both Houses)   
   >>>>>>>2008 -  459B    - Deficit   
   >>>>>>>2009 - 1413B    - Deficit (Obama took office in January 2009)   
   >>>>>>>2010 - 1294B    - Deficit   
   >>>>>>>2011 - 1299B    - Deficit   
   >>>>>>>2012 - 1100B    - Deficit   
   >>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>Totals - Bush   - 3674B in Deficits - 8 years 2002 - 2009   
   >>>>>>>       - Obama  - 3693B in Deficits - 3 years 2009 - 2012   
   >>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>Can you point out that half trillion per annum you were talking   
   >>>>>>>about?   
   >>>>>>> I only see two years that even come close....2004 and 2008.  Of   
   >>>>>>>course we could throw in 2009 since that budget was passed on   
   >>>>>>>Bush's watch.  It is also counted in Bush's total and not Obama's   
   >>>>>>>above.   
   >>>>>>   
   >>>>>> According to the Bureau of Public Debt:   
   >>>>>>   
   >>>>>> Date               Total Public Debt Outstanding   
   >>>>>> 09/29/00     5,674,178,209,887   
   >>>>>> 09/28/01     5,807,463,412,200   
   >>>>>> 09/30/02     6,228,235,965,597   
   >>>>>> 09/30/03     6,783,231,062,744   
   >>>>>> 09/30/04     7,379,052,696,330   
   >>>>>> 09/30/05     7,932,709,661,724   
   >>>>>> 09/29/06     8,506,973,899,215   
   >>>>>> 09/28/07     9,007,653,372,262   
   >>>>>> 09/30/08     10,024,724,896,913   
   >>>>>> 01/20/09     10,626,877,048,913   
   >>>>>> 09/30/09     11,909,829,003,512   
   >>>>>>   
   >>>>>>   
   >>>>>> Date               Debt Held by the Public   
   >>>>>> 09/29/00     3,405,303,490,221   
   >>>>>> 09/28/01     3,339,310,176,095   
   >>>>>> 09/30/02     3,553,180,247,875   
   >>>>>> 09/30/03     3,924,090,106,881   
   >>>>>> 09/30/04     4,307,344,596,909   
   >>>>>> 09/30/05     4,601,238,726,062   
   >>>>>> 09/29/06     4,843,120,736,192   
   >>>>>> 09/28/07     5,049,305,502,926   
   >>>>>> 09/30/08     5,808,691,665,404   
   >>>>>> 01/20/09     6,307,310,739,682   
   >>>>>> 09/30/09     7,551,861,558,737   
   >>>>>>   
   >>>>>> Date               Intragovernmental Holdings   
   >>>>>> 09/29/00     2,268,874,719,666   
   >>>>>> 09/28/01     2,468,153,236,105   
   >>>>>> 09/30/02     2,675,055,717,722   
   >>>>>> 09/30/03     2,859,140,955,863   
   >>>>>> 09/30/04     3,071,708,099,421   
   >>>>>> 09/30/05     3,331,470,935,661   
   >>>>>> 09/29/06     3,663,853,163,023   
   >>>>>> 09/28/07     3,958,347,869,336   
   >>>>>> 09/30/08     4,216,033,231,509   
   >>>>>> 01/20/09     4,319,566,309,231   
   >>>>>> 09/30/09     4,357,967,444,775   
   >>>>>>   
   >>>>>>   
   >>>>>>   
   >>>>>> A small part of the FY 2001 debt was Bush-inspired, but not much.   
   >>>>>> The FY 2009 debt increase was shared between Bush and Obama's   
   >>>>>> stimulus. Let's just look at the other seven years and see that   
   >>>>>> the debt increased $4.2 billion in those seven years. Maybe Bush   
   >>>>>> wasn't counting everything in his deficit claims.   
   >>>>>>   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>>They pretty much match what I put up there.  I only showed the   
   >>>>>deficit itself and you didn't have to do the math.   
   >>>>   
   >>>> How do they match?   
   >>>>   
   >>>> Date          Total Public Debt               Increase in Total   
   >>>> Public Debt 09/29/00      5,674,178,209,887   
   >>>> 09/28/01      5,807,463,412,200   
   >>>> 133,285,202,313 09/30/02      6,228,235,965,597   
   >>>>   
   >>>>  420,772,553,397 09/30/03      6,783,231,062,744   
   >>>>   
   >>>>   554,995,097,146 09/30/04      7,379,052,696,330   
   >>>>   
   >>>>    595,821,633,587 09/30/05      7,932,709,661,724   
   >>>>   
   >>>>     553,656,965,393 09/29/06      8,506,973,899,215   
   >>>>   
   >>>>      574,264,237,492 09/28/07      9,007,653,372,262   
   >>>>   
   >>>>       500,679,473,047 09/30/08     10,024,724,896,913   
   >>>>   
   >>>>   1,017,071,524,650 09/30/09     11,909,829,003,512   
   >>>> 1,885,104,106,599   
   >>>>   
   >>>> Your deficit numbers always undercounted the increase in debt. You   
   >>>> questioned whether Bush increased debt half a trillion a year, but   
   >>>> the evidence is clear that it was in excesss of half a trillion a   
   >>>> year.   
   >>>>   
   >>>   
   >>>Not quite.  You said he ran deficits of a half trillion per year.   
   >>>Deficits (and surpluses) are run against the budget.  Overall debt   
   >>>which you are showing is not.  It is an overall cost of government   
   >>>minus revenue. I showed you the deficits against the budget.   
   >>>   
   >>>If you wish to see this clearly, look at Clintons surpluses.  The debt   
   >>>went up every year under Clinton.  If Clinton's surpluses his last   
   >>>couple of years in office were true and actual surpluses you would   
   >>>have seen a drop in the debt.  The difference you are asking about   
   >>>between us is off- budget items.   
   >>>   
   >>>Here...from the same source:   
   >>>   
   >>>09/30/2012     16,066,241,407,385.89   
   >>>09/30/2011     14,790,340,328,557.15   
   >>>09/30/2010     13,561,623,030,891.79   
   >>>09/30/2009     11,909,829,003,511.75   
   >>>09/30/2008     10,024,724,896,912.49   
   >>>09/30/2007     9,007,653,372,262.48   
   >>>09/30/2006     8,506,973,899,215.23   
   >>>09/30/2005     7,932,709,661,723.50   
   >>>09/30/2004     7,379,052,696,330.32   
   >>>09/30/2003     6,783,231,062,743.62   
   >>>09/30/2002     6,228,235,965,597.16   
   >>>09/30/2001     5,807,463,412,200.06   
   >>>09/30/2000     5,674,178,209,886.86   
   >>>09/30/1999     5,656,270,901,615.43   
   >>>09/30/1998     5,526,193,008,897.62   
   >>>09/30/1997     5,413,146,011,397.34   
   >>>09/30/1996     5,224,810,939,135.73   
   >>>09/29/1995     4,973,982,900,709.39   
   >>>09/30/1994     4,692,749,910,013.32   
   >>>09/30/1993     4,411,488,883,139.38   
   >>>09/30/1992     4,064,620,655,521.66   
   >>>09/30/1991     3,665,303,351,697.03   
   >>>   
   >>>Now, look at Clinton's years in office.  Tell me when the debt went   
   >>>down and his administration didn't add to that debt.  He cam pretty   
   >>>close a couple of times, but he didn't have a big enough surplus to   
   >>>cover the off budget costs.   
   >>   
   >> The debt only went down if you net the intragovernmental debt against   
   >> the general debt.   
   >   
   >Which means that the deficit or surplus comes from the budget and does   
   >not include off budget costs.  That means that the debt can continue to   
   >rise although that year showed a **budget** surplus.  You talked about   
   >Bush's half trillion dollar deficits.  That would indicate you were   
   >talking about budgeted items since that is how the surplus or deficit is   
      
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