XPost: alt.society.liberalism, alt.atheism, talk.politics.guns
From: lunch@nofreelunch.us
On Sun, 19 May 2013 12:58:08 -0500, RD Sandman
wrote in alt.atheism:
>Free Lunch wrote in
>news:qrthp8tnn097t03tkum67nrm1s2uge12k3@4ax.com:
>
>> On Sun, 19 May 2013 10:44:38 -0500, RD Sandman
>> wrote in alt.atheism:
>>
>>>Free Lunch wrote in
>>>news:nd2gp8tcq1si9udrkfhh6mglqbg7qdd96v@4ax.com:
>>>
>>>> On Sat, 18 May 2013 16:17:02 -0500, RD Sandman
>>>> wrote in alt.atheism:
>>>>
>>>>>Free Lunch wrote in
>>>>>news:rmnfp89epf3h5u777iq5ms6dujq3m721fa@4ax.com:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Please note:
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> If, as W was, you are adding half a trillion a year to the
>debt,
>>>>>>>>>> it is much harder to come out of a recession with added
>>>>>>>>>> stimulus. W's deficits after 2002 were irresponsible.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Hmmmm, Bush's deficits were:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>2000 - 236.4B - Surplus (Left over from Clinton)
>>>>>>>>>2001 - 127.3B - Surplus
>>>>>>>>>2002 - 157.8B - Deficit
>>>>>>>>>2003 - 377.6B - Deficit
>>>>>>>>>2004 - 413B - Deficit
>>>>>>>>>2005 - 318B - Deficit
>>>>>>>>>2006 - 248B - Deficit
>>>>>>>>>2007 - 161B - Deficit (Democrats now own both Houses)
>>>>>>>>>2008 - 459B - Deficit
>>>>>>>>>2009 - 1413B - Deficit (Obama took office in January 2009)
>>>>>>>>>2010 - 1294B - Deficit
>>>>>>>>>2011 - 1299B - Deficit
>>>>>>>>>2012 - 1100B - Deficit
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Totals - Bush - 3674B in Deficits - 8 years 2002 - 2009
>>>>>>>>> - Obama - 3693B in Deficits - 3 years 2009 - 2012
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Can you point out that half trillion per annum you were talking
>>>>>>>>>about?
>>>>>>>>> I only see two years that even come close....2004 and 2008. Of
>>>>>>>>>course we could throw in 2009 since that budget was passed on
>>>>>>>>>Bush's watch. It is also counted in Bush's total and not Obama's
>>>>>>>>>above.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> According to the Bureau of Public Debt:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Date Total Public Debt Outstanding
>>>>>>>> 09/29/00 5,674,178,209,887
>>>>>>>> 09/28/01 5,807,463,412,200
>>>>>>>> 09/30/02 6,228,235,965,597
>>>>>>>> 09/30/03 6,783,231,062,744
>>>>>>>> 09/30/04 7,379,052,696,330
>>>>>>>> 09/30/05 7,932,709,661,724
>>>>>>>> 09/29/06 8,506,973,899,215
>>>>>>>> 09/28/07 9,007,653,372,262
>>>>>>>> 09/30/08 10,024,724,896,913
>>>>>>>> 01/20/09 10,626,877,048,913
>>>>>>>> 09/30/09 11,909,829,003,512
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Date Debt Held by the Public
>>>>>>>> 09/29/00 3,405,303,490,221
>>>>>>>> 09/28/01 3,339,310,176,095
>>>>>>>> 09/30/02 3,553,180,247,875
>>>>>>>> 09/30/03 3,924,090,106,881
>>>>>>>> 09/30/04 4,307,344,596,909
>>>>>>>> 09/30/05 4,601,238,726,062
>>>>>>>> 09/29/06 4,843,120,736,192
>>>>>>>> 09/28/07 5,049,305,502,926
>>>>>>>> 09/30/08 5,808,691,665,404
>>>>>>>> 01/20/09 6,307,310,739,682
>>>>>>>> 09/30/09 7,551,861,558,737
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Date Intragovernmental Holdings
>>>>>>>> 09/29/00 2,268,874,719,666
>>>>>>>> 09/28/01 2,468,153,236,105
>>>>>>>> 09/30/02 2,675,055,717,722
>>>>>>>> 09/30/03 2,859,140,955,863
>>>>>>>> 09/30/04 3,071,708,099,421
>>>>>>>> 09/30/05 3,331,470,935,661
>>>>>>>> 09/29/06 3,663,853,163,023
>>>>>>>> 09/28/07 3,958,347,869,336
>>>>>>>> 09/30/08 4,216,033,231,509
>>>>>>>> 01/20/09 4,319,566,309,231
>>>>>>>> 09/30/09 4,357,967,444,775
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> A small part of the FY 2001 debt was Bush-inspired, but not much.
>>>>>>>> The FY 2009 debt increase was shared between Bush and Obama's
>>>>>>>> stimulus. Let's just look at the other seven years and see that
>>>>>>>> the debt increased $4.2 billion in those seven years. Maybe Bush
>>>>>>>> wasn't counting everything in his deficit claims.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>They pretty much match what I put up there. I only showed the
>>>>>>>deficit itself and you didn't have to do the math.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> How do they match?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Date Total Public Debt Increase in Total
>>>>>> Public Debt 09/29/00 5,674,178,209,887
>>>>>> 09/28/01 5,807,463,412,200
>>>>>> 133,285,202,313 09/30/02 6,228,235,965,597
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 420,772,553,397 09/30/03 6,783,231,062,744
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 554,995,097,146 09/30/04 7,379,052,696,330
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 595,821,633,587 09/30/05 7,932,709,661,724
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 553,656,965,393 09/29/06 8,506,973,899,215
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 574,264,237,492 09/28/07 9,007,653,372,262
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 500,679,473,047 09/30/08 10,024,724,896,913
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 1,017,071,524,650 09/30/09 11,909,829,003,512
>>>>>> 1,885,104,106,599
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Your deficit numbers always undercounted the increase in debt. You
>>>>>> questioned whether Bush increased debt half a trillion a year, but
>>>>>> the evidence is clear that it was in excesss of half a trillion a
>>>>>> year.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Not quite. You said he ran deficits of a half trillion per year.
>>>>>Deficits (and surpluses) are run against the budget. Overall debt
>>>>>which you are showing is not. It is an overall cost of government
>>>>>minus revenue. I showed you the deficits against the budget.
>>>>>
>>>>>If you wish to see this clearly, look at Clintons surpluses. The
>debt
>>>>>went up every year under Clinton. If Clinton's surpluses his last
>>>>>couple of years in office were true and actual surpluses you would
>>>>>have seen a drop in the debt. The difference you are asking about
>>>>>between us is off- budget items.
>>>>>
>>>>>Here...from the same source:
>>>>>
>>>>>09/30/2012 16,066,241,407,385.89
>>>>>09/30/2011 14,790,340,328,557.15
>>>>>09/30/2010 13,561,623,030,891.79
>>>>>09/30/2009 11,909,829,003,511.75
>>>>>09/30/2008 10,024,724,896,912.49
>>>>>09/30/2007 9,007,653,372,262.48
>>>>>09/30/2006 8,506,973,899,215.23
>>>>>09/30/2005 7,932,709,661,723.50
>>>>>09/30/2004 7,379,052,696,330.32
>>>>>09/30/2003 6,783,231,062,743.62
>>>>>09/30/2002 6,228,235,965,597.16
>>>>>09/30/2001 5,807,463,412,200.06
>>>>>09/30/2000 5,674,178,209,886.86
>>>>>09/30/1999 5,656,270,901,615.43
>>>>>09/30/1998 5,526,193,008,897.62
>>>>>09/30/1997 5,413,146,011,397.34
>>>>>09/30/1996 5,224,810,939,135.73
>>>>>09/29/1995 4,973,982,900,709.39
>>>>>09/30/1994 4,692,749,910,013.32
>>>>>09/30/1993 4,411,488,883,139.38
>>>>>09/30/1992 4,064,620,655,521.66
>>>>>09/30/1991 3,665,303,351,697.03
>>>>>
>>>>>Now, look at Clinton's years in office. Tell me when the debt went
>>>>>down and his administration didn't add to that debt. He cam pretty
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