XPost: alt.society.liberalism, alt.atheism, talk.politics.guns
From: me4guns@verizon.removeme.this2.nospam.net
"RD Sandman" wrote in message
news:XnsA1C57EFFC4BE1hopewell@216.196.121.131...
> Free Lunch wrote in
> news:eo4ip89egj1n05i9freal2ed4d29p0baor@4ax.com:
>
>> On Sun, 19 May 2013 12:58:08 -0500, RD Sandman
>> wrote in alt.atheism:
>>
>>>Free Lunch wrote in
>>>news:qrthp8tnn097t03tkum67nrm1s2uge12k3@4ax.com:
>>>
>>>> On Sun, 19 May 2013 10:44:38 -0500, RD Sandman
>>>> wrote in alt.atheism:
>>>>
>>>>>Free Lunch wrote in
>>>>>news:nd2gp8tcq1si9udrkfhh6mglqbg7qdd96v@4ax.com:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sat, 18 May 2013 16:17:02 -0500, RD Sandman
>>>>>> wrote in alt.atheism:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Free Lunch wrote in
>>>>>>>news:rmnfp89epf3h5u777iq5ms6dujq3m721fa@4ax.com:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Please note:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> If, as W was, you are adding half a trillion a year to the
>>>debt,
>>>>>>>>>>>> it is much harder to come out of a recession with added
>>>>>>>>>>>> stimulus. W's deficits after 2002 were irresponsible.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>Hmmmm, Bush's deficits were:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>2000 - 236.4B - Surplus (Left over from Clinton)
>>>>>>>>>>>2001 - 127.3B - Surplus
>>>>>>>>>>>2002 - 157.8B - Deficit
>>>>>>>>>>>2003 - 377.6B - Deficit
>>>>>>>>>>>2004 - 413B - Deficit
>>>>>>>>>>>2005 - 318B - Deficit
>>>>>>>>>>>2006 - 248B - Deficit
>>>>>>>>>>>2007 - 161B - Deficit (Democrats now own both Houses)
>>>>>>>>>>>2008 - 459B - Deficit
>>>>>>>>>>>2009 - 1413B - Deficit (Obama took office in January 2009)
>>>>>>>>>>>2010 - 1294B - Deficit
>>>>>>>>>>>2011 - 1299B - Deficit
>>>>>>>>>>>2012 - 1100B - Deficit
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>Totals - Bush - 3674B in Deficits - 8 years 2002 - 2009
>>>>>>>>>>> - Obama - 3693B in Deficits - 3 years 2009 - 2012
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>Can you point out that half trillion per annum you were
>>>>>>>>>>>talking about?
>>>>>>>>>>> I only see two years that even come close....2004 and 2008.
>>>>>>>>>>> Of
>>>>>>>>>>>course we could throw in 2009 since that budget was passed on
>>>>>>>>>>>Bush's watch. It is also counted in Bush's total and not
>>>>>>>>>>>Obama's above.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> According to the Bureau of Public Debt:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Date Total Public Debt Outstanding
>>>>>>>>>> 09/29/00 5,674,178,209,887
>>>>>>>>>> 09/28/01 5,807,463,412,200
>>>>>>>>>> 09/30/02 6,228,235,965,597
>>>>>>>>>> 09/30/03 6,783,231,062,744
>>>>>>>>>> 09/30/04 7,379,052,696,330
>>>>>>>>>> 09/30/05 7,932,709,661,724
>>>>>>>>>> 09/29/06 8,506,973,899,215
>>>>>>>>>> 09/28/07 9,007,653,372,262
>>>>>>>>>> 09/30/08 10,024,724,896,913
>>>>>>>>>> 01/20/09 10,626,877,048,913
>>>>>>>>>> 09/30/09 11,909,829,003,512
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Date Debt Held by the Public
>>>>>>>>>> 09/29/00 3,405,303,490,221
>>>>>>>>>> 09/28/01 3,339,310,176,095
>>>>>>>>>> 09/30/02 3,553,180,247,875
>>>>>>>>>> 09/30/03 3,924,090,106,881
>>>>>>>>>> 09/30/04 4,307,344,596,909
>>>>>>>>>> 09/30/05 4,601,238,726,062
>>>>>>>>>> 09/29/06 4,843,120,736,192
>>>>>>>>>> 09/28/07 5,049,305,502,926
>>>>>>>>>> 09/30/08 5,808,691,665,404
>>>>>>>>>> 01/20/09 6,307,310,739,682
>>>>>>>>>> 09/30/09 7,551,861,558,737
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Date Intragovernmental Holdings
>>>>>>>>>> 09/29/00 2,268,874,719,666
>>>>>>>>>> 09/28/01 2,468,153,236,105
>>>>>>>>>> 09/30/02 2,675,055,717,722
>>>>>>>>>> 09/30/03 2,859,140,955,863
>>>>>>>>>> 09/30/04 3,071,708,099,421
>>>>>>>>>> 09/30/05 3,331,470,935,661
>>>>>>>>>> 09/29/06 3,663,853,163,023
>>>>>>>>>> 09/28/07 3,958,347,869,336
>>>>>>>>>> 09/30/08 4,216,033,231,509
>>>>>>>>>> 01/20/09 4,319,566,309,231
>>>>>>>>>> 09/30/09 4,357,967,444,775
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> A small part of the FY 2001 debt was Bush-inspired, but not
>>>>>>>>>> much. The FY 2009 debt increase was shared between Bush and
>>>>>>>>>> Obama's stimulus. Let's just look at the other seven years and
>>>>>>>>>> see that the debt increased $4.2 billion in those seven years.
>>>>>>>>>> Maybe Bush wasn't counting everything in his deficit claims.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>They pretty much match what I put up there. I only showed the
>>>>>>>>>deficit itself and you didn't have to do the math.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> How do they match?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Date Total Public Debt Increase in Total
>>>>>>>> Public Debt 09/29/00 5,674,178,209,887
>>>>>>>> 09/28/01 5,807,463,412,200
>>>>>>>> 133,285,202,313 09/30/02 6,228,235,965,597
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 420,772,553,397 09/30/03 6,783,231,062,744
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 554,995,097,146 09/30/04 7,379,052,696,330
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 595,821,633,587 09/30/05 7,932,709,661,724
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 553,656,965,393 09/29/06 8,506,973,899,215
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 574,264,237,492 09/28/07 9,007,653,372,262
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 500,679,473,047 09/30/08 10,024,724,896,913
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 1,017,071,524,650 09/30/09 11,909,829,003,512
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 1,885,104,106,599
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Your deficit numbers always undercounted the increase in debt.
>>>>>>>> You questioned whether Bush increased debt half a trillion a
>>>>>>>> year, but the evidence is clear that it was in excesss of half a
>>>>>>>> trillion a year.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Not quite. You said he ran deficits of a half trillion per year.
>>>>>>>Deficits (and surpluses) are run against the budget. Overall debt
>>>>>>>which you are showing is not. It is an overall cost of government
>>>>>>>minus revenue. I showed you the deficits against the budget.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>If you wish to see this clearly, look at Clintons surpluses. The
>>>debt
>>>>>>>went up every year under Clinton. If Clinton's surpluses his last
>>>>>>>couple of years in office were true and actual surpluses you would
>>>>>>>have seen a drop in the debt. The difference you are asking about
>>>>>>>between us is off- budget items.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Here...from the same source:
>>>>>>>
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