XPost: rec.arts.books.tolkien, alt.fan.tolkien, alt.books.inklings   
   From: Troels@ThisIsFake.invalid   
      
   In message  Weland   
    spoke these staves:   
   >   
   > On 10/24/2010 6:43 AM, Troels Forchhammer wrote:   
   >>   
      
      
      
   First, thank you for this post -- you have certainly given me a lot   
   to think about (some of which may invalidate my initial responses   
   below, but such is the nature of it . . .).   
      
   > I hope we're using Romance in the same way....just to clarify I'm   
   > thinking of Matter of Britain, the Matter of Troy, and the Matter   
   > of France.   
      
   Sorry, my fault -- I was thinking of romanticism (in particular the   
   national romanticism of the late eighteenth and early nineteenth   
   centuries -- Grundtvig was one of the prime exponents of this in   
   Denmark, and I believe that Lönnrot also worked under the influence   
   of this philosophical movement).   
      
   >> Rowling appears to build her sub-creation mostly on various   
   >> folk-lore and folk-tale elements that belong to the last couple   
   >> of centuries -- some of the folk-tales of course have longer   
   >> traditions, but they have been collected and written down in this   
   >> period, and much of the present day folk-lore concerning   
   >> vampires, werewolves etc. etc. originate in these old folk-tales   
   >> and have been developed in various later fiction.   
   >   
   > Sure.  But I'd say that those are externals, stage dressing.   
      
   I know -- I just put more emphasis on this stage dressing due to the   
   pervasiveness of so many narrative elements in western culture (as I   
   argued earlier).  The underlying narrative elements generally belong   
   to traditions that could come from anywhen -- traditions that are   
   known from the earliest stories and continuously used also in the   
   stories that are now mere synapses in the mind of their future   
   authors (and probably beyond that as well).  We have, so to speak,   
   elements that are essentially undateable and then we have the stage   
   dressing which is more easily dated.   
      
   > The essentials of the narrative: orphaned boy is really something   
   > far greater and "destined" to great things is far older: Scyld   
   > Scefing? Beowulf?  Arthur?   
      
   Yes, and we can continue the list including German folk-tales   
   collected by the Grimm brothers, all the way to -- and past -- Harry   
   Potter and Lyra. Or, if we wanted we could also find earlier tales in   
   the same tradition -- the tale about the orphan with the big destiny   
   seems to be as old as story.   
      
   But that is part of the problem :-)   
      
   > The "twins" who battle against each other is pretty old too.   
      
   I seem to remember it appearing in some Jewish text also . . .  ;-)   
      
   > The last novel is based on a clever reinterpretation of Chaucer's   
   > Pardoner's Tale.   
      
   I'll take your word for it, but of course I also have to ask how many   
   times it reappear in works from the last couple of centuries?  :)   
      
   >> The classical influences seem to me to be limited mainly to   
   >> languages rather than stories: spells and names.   
   >   
   > They aren't as obvious, I'll grant, but many of the archetypes are   
   > there as well....part of the cauldron from which she is taking.   
      
   Very good! I like the image of the cauldron -- they are now a part of   
   the basic stock in the cauldron, and have been boiling for so long   
   that their origin is not always the most relevant expression of them   
   for any given individual.   
      
   >> Tolkien, on the other hand, appears to build his sub-creation   
   >> mostly on elements from much earlier (by a millennium or so)   
   >> sources such as Anglo-Saxon, Old Norse and classical mythologies   
   >> and legends.   
   >   
   > See above, though I'd agree that her dependence is less on the OE   
   > and ON...less "northerness" than Tolkien, but as much as Tolkien   
   > draws on those traditions, he also draws on later materials such   
   > as Sir Orfeo, Pearl, Chaucer, among others, heck even Shakespeare   
   > and Dante!   
      
   You're right -- I was forgetting some of these (both for Tolkien and   
   Rowling).   
      
      
      
   >> However, I am always wary of claims of classical influence,   
   >   
   > Me too!  I don't recall making a specific claim about classical   
   > influence (did I?  I remember medieval and Renaissance, but not   
   > classical...do correct me if I'm wrong), but I'd agree that one   
   > has to be careful considering the ubiquity of certain "classical"   
   > stories.   
      
   I don't really remember where I got the idea of 'classical   
   influence' from -- possibly just inspired by her use of Latin and   
   Greek for her spells.   
      
   However, the same arguments apply to many of the great narrative   
   essentials that have been used again and again in Western literature.   
      
      
      
   >> So, in an attempt to impose some order on this, and combining   
   >> what you've said, I've constructed the following list   
   [...]   
   >> 2: Inspired by a certain set of ideas:   
   >>     - Christian thought   
   >>     - ??   
   >>     (I know there are others, but which are they?)   
   [...]   
   >> Is this a fair representation?   
   >   
   > It is, and I can try to flesh this out a bit, esp. #2, but it will   
   > have to wait.   
      
   I'd be grateful -- and I can wait :)   
      
   > I have exams to grade I'm avoiding,   
      
   Having no longer any papers to grade is probably the single best   
   thing about no longer teaching ;-)  I can still miss (after ten   
   years) the interactions in class, but I'll never miss grading papers   
   . . .   
      
      
      
   >> I am, however, not sure that this translates all that well to   
   >> Rowling, who often uses more modern sources that have no need of   
   >> mediation to the modern reader (to a very large extent, the   
   >> elements Rowling borrow into her sub-creation from external folk-   
   >> lore sources are still a part of the common traditîon that is   
   >> known to her readers).   
   >   
   > But take the archetype of the orphan with the great legacy and   
   > therefore great destiny....old and ancient that one is and Rowling   
   > for all her faults isn't an unread idiot.   
      
   I certainly didn't mean to imply that she is -- if nothing else that   
   BA in French and Classics would imply otherwise ;-)   
      
   My point is that insofar as I can date her sources (which is mainly   
   the ornamental devices -- the werewolves, the ghosts, etc.) these   
   are, except for some use of snippets of classical language, of the   
   sort that is immediately understandable by the modern reader. Rowling   
   _does_ use Harry to mediate between the reader and her Wizard World   
   (helped along with information provided by Ron and Hermione), but I   
   don't think the span that he mediates across is one of time (as is   
   often the case in Tolkien where the hobbits, and Merry in particular,   
   mediate between the reader and his past by building a bridge to the   
   Rohirrim).   
      
   As you say, the orphan is an archetype with as great a history in   
   real-world literature as it is in the world of literature, but though   
   I am fully aware that Rowling knows of much older expressions of this   
   story, her use of it has no trace of attempting to mediate between an   
   old tale and a modern reader, and I am sure that she also knows of   
   modern expressions of the story. In the end I would not be surprised   
      
   [continued in next message]   
      
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