XPost: alt.autos.toyota, rec.autos.driving, alt.society.liberalism   
   XPost: alt.fan.michael-moore   
   From: demi@moore.net   
      
   On Tue, 22 Feb 2011 03:51:32 +0000 (UTC), Brent   
    wrote:   
      
   >On 2011-02-22, Ashton Crusher  wrote:   
   >> On Fri, 18 Feb 2011 19:25:26 +0000 (UTC), Brent   
   >> wrote:   
   >>   
   >>>On 2011-02-18, Ashton Crusher  wrote:   
   >>>> On Thu, 17 Feb 2011 14:44:30 +0000 (UTC), Brent   
   >>>> wrote:   
   >>>>   
   >>>>>On 2011-02-17, Ashton Crusher  wrote:   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>>> The free market can't produce FREE roads but they could make   
   >>>>>> standardized ones.  The biggest problem I see with free market roads   
   >>>>>> is if they are truly free market then you have lost your freedom to   
   >>>>>> travel "freely" in the non-economic sense.  Ultimately you would not   
   >>>>>> be able to leave your house without paying for the privilege.  The   
   >>>>>> libertarians call that the perfect world.   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>>As opposed to government roads that are created with magic and instead   
   >>>>>of resources taken from the population? Or is it that you want to   
   >>>>>arrange things by the political process so that those people over there   
   >>>>>pay for the roads while you get to use them for free?   
   >   
   >>>>>As to freedom to travel, how exactly do we have that by the political   
   >>>>>process? The govenment has its armed muscle collect tribute on the   
   >>>>>roads. The government has them set up checkpoints. Government enjoys   
   >>>>>making people submit to it in order to travel. Travel was reduced from   
   >>>>>a right to a government granted privilege. What's better? Being a   
   >>>>>paying customer or subjected to stops and possibly searches by armed   
   >>>>>men who's performance reviews depend on how much money they bring in   
   >>>>>and/or how many arrests they make?   
   >>>   
   >>>> Under the current system you are free to leave your home in your car   
   >>>> and drive anywhere you want (or you can walk).   
   >>>   
   >>>It's not cost free, those costs are just hidden to most people. Also   
   >>>I've been stopped by cops while walking,biking, and driving. It hasn't   
   >>>been free travel for a very long time.   
   >   
   >> I never said it was cost free.  So there goes that strawman.  I said   
   >> you are free to travel.   
   >   
   >Not a strawman at all. Your argument is based on government roads not   
   >having a user cost. Once you admit there is a user cost your entire   
   >argument falls apart. All that remains is who pays and how it is   
   >collected. It appears you wanted it collected from other people under   
   >threat of violence instead of as any sort of user fee or subscription.   
   >   
   >>>>  If you think you are   
   >>>> subject to "gvt inspection" along they way lets agree, for this   
   >>>> discussion, that you are correct.  There is nothing about turning all   
   >>>> the roads into private ownership in a free market that in any way   
   >>>> changes how you would be subject to  "gvt inspection" along they way.   
   >   
   >>>I did not mention some insider deal which is usually what passes for   
   >>>privization in the USA. Where the government's office holders make a   
   >>>sweet deal for their buddies at taxpayer expense.   
   >   
   >> Nor did I mention any insider deal.  Another of your strawmen disposed   
   >> of.   
   >   
   >If government retains the power you state then you have some sort of   
   >insider private-government arrangement. A free market property rights   
   >system doesn't work the way you describe.   
   >   
   >>>>   The "control" by the gvt would be/could be exactly the same as it is   
   >>>> now, the ONLY difference would be whether you had to PAY for EVERY   
   >>>> SPECIFIC use of the roads and/or an access subscription fee.  In our   
   >>>> current system you do not have to  PAY for EVERY SPECIFIC use of the   
   >>>> roads except for a very very tiny percentage of toll roads, and   
   >>>> certainly not your local collectors and residential roads.  But if ALL   
   >>>> roads were made private enterprise there is NOTHING (except the gvt of   
   >>>> course, but you don't want them involved) to stop the private owners   
   >>>> from demanding that you PAY for EVERY SPECIFIC use of the road (or a   
   >>>> subscription) in front of your house and charging whatever they wanted   
   >>>> for it's use. Even if they sold it to you on a monthly or yearly basis   
   >>>> instead of every trip they would still require you to pay them   
   >>>> directly and for most roads in residential areas there would be no   
   >>>> alternative, you either pay to back out of your driveway or you don't   
   >>>> leave.   
   >   
   >>>Where do you think the money for the roads come from now? It's both a   
   >>>per-use and time basis built into fuel and property taxes. Just because   
   >>>you don't see it doesn't mean you or someone else doesn't pay it.   
   >   
   >> I've never said roads don't cost money.  There goes you strawman a   
   >> second time.   
   >   
   >Your entire argument is based on people not paying, not getting a bill.   
   >On my desk here I have the property tax bills for the properties I own.   
   >Tell me again how this is different from what your horrible worst case   
   >imagination of a private road system?   
   >   
   >>>>  And they could charge anything they want since in your model it's   
   >>>> totally free enterprise, the market charges what it wants.   
   >   
   >>>My model? I haven't offered a model.   
   >>>   
   >   
   >> So you are not in favor of totally free enterprise?   
   >   
   >You've created a model that is hardly anything close to what I would   
   >propose, assign it to me, and then knock it down. I will not entertain   
   >it.   
   >   
   >>>>   Court rulings now give us the right to use the public roads   
   >>>> unfettered for NON-commercial use.   
   >   
   >>>It's long since erroded to "privilege" granted by government. Courts   
   >>>have gone along with it.   
   >   
   >> No it hasn't.   
   >   
   >Tell that to a cop when you are at checkpoint. He'll tell you it's a   
   >privilege.   
   >   
   >>>> And there are MANY people who pay   
   >>>> no taxes due to their income level but actually get money paid to them   
   >>>> every year with the earned income credit. The amount is more then   
   >>>> enough to offset the $1000 they spend a year on gas taxes.  So there   
   >>>> are many people currently using the system for free and who, under a   
   >>>> "free market" system could be precluded from even traveling.   
   >   
   >>>And now we get to the root cause of your displeasure... you want to use   
   >>>roads that OTHER people pay for. As to certain people not being able to   
   >>>travel because of their finances... well there are ways to deal with   
   >>>that... but that's neither here nor there for my purpose here.   
   >   
   >> Another strawman by you.  I've never made any such claim.  I'm merely   
   >> pointing out the logical end point of those who make a fetish of the   
   >> "free market" and want to apply it to our road system.   
   >   
   >You're not pointing out anything. You're complaining that you'd have to   
      
   [continued in next message]   
      
   --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05   
    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)