XPost: alt.autos.toyota, rec.autos.driving, alt.society.liberalism   
   XPost: alt.fan.michael-moore   
   From: tetraethylleadREMOVETHIS@yahoo.com   
      
   On 2011-03-03, Ashton Crusher  wrote:   
   > On Tue, 22 Feb 2011 03:51:32 +0000 (UTC), Brent   
   > wrote:   
   >   
   >>On 2011-02-22, Ashton Crusher  wrote:   
   >>> On Fri, 18 Feb 2011 19:25:26 +0000 (UTC), Brent   
   >>> wrote:   
   >>>   
   >>>>On 2011-02-18, Ashton Crusher  wrote:   
   >>>>> On Thu, 17 Feb 2011 14:44:30 +0000 (UTC), Brent   
   >>>>> wrote:   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>>>On 2011-02-17, Ashton Crusher  wrote:   
   >>>>>>   
   >>>>>>> The free market can't produce FREE roads but they could make   
   >>>>>>> standardized ones.  The biggest problem I see with free market roads   
   >>>>>>> is if they are truly free market then you have lost your freedom to   
   >>>>>>> travel "freely" in the non-economic sense.  Ultimately you would not   
   >>>>>>> be able to leave your house without paying for the privilege.  The   
   >>>>>>> libertarians call that the perfect world.   
   >>>>>>   
   >>>>>>As opposed to government roads that are created with magic and instead   
   >>>>>>of resources taken from the population? Or is it that you want to   
   >>>>>>arrange things by the political process so that those people over there   
   >>>>>>pay for the roads while you get to use them for free?   
   >>   
   >>>>>>As to freedom to travel, how exactly do we have that by the political   
   >>>>>>process? The govenment has its armed muscle collect tribute on the   
   >>>>>>roads. The government has them set up checkpoints. Government enjoys   
   >>>>>>making people submit to it in order to travel. Travel was reduced from   
   >>>>>>a right to a government granted privilege. What's better? Being a   
   >>>>>>paying customer or subjected to stops and possibly searches by armed   
   >>>>>>men who's performance reviews depend on how much money they bring in   
   >>>>>>and/or how many arrests they make?   
   >>>>   
   >>>>> Under the current system you are free to leave your home in your car   
   >>>>> and drive anywhere you want (or you can walk).   
   >>>>   
   >>>>It's not cost free, those costs are just hidden to most people. Also   
   >>>>I've been stopped by cops while walking,biking, and driving. It hasn't   
   >>>>been free travel for a very long time.   
   >>   
   >>> I never said it was cost free.  So there goes that strawman.  I said   
   >>> you are free to travel.   
   >>   
   >>Not a strawman at all. Your argument is based on government roads not   
   >>having a user cost. Once you admit there is a user cost your entire   
   >>argument falls apart. All that remains is who pays and how it is   
   >>collected. It appears you wanted it collected from other people under   
   >>threat of violence instead of as any sort of user fee or subscription.   
   >>   
   >>>>>  If you think you are   
   >>>>> subject to "gvt inspection" along they way lets agree, for this   
   >>>>> discussion, that you are correct.  There is nothing about turning all   
   >>>>> the roads into private ownership in a free market that in any way   
   >>>>> changes how you would be subject to  "gvt inspection" along they way.   
   >>   
   >>>>I did not mention some insider deal which is usually what passes for   
   >>>>privization in the USA. Where the government's office holders make a   
   >>>>sweet deal for their buddies at taxpayer expense.   
   >>   
   >>> Nor did I mention any insider deal.  Another of your strawmen disposed   
   >>> of.   
   >>   
   >>If government retains the power you state then you have some sort of   
   >>insider private-government arrangement. A free market property rights   
   >>system doesn't work the way you describe.   
   >>   
   >>>>>   The "control" by the gvt would be/could be exactly the same as it is   
   >>>>> now, the ONLY difference would be whether you had to PAY for EVERY   
   >>>>> SPECIFIC use of the roads and/or an access subscription fee.  In our   
   >>>>> current system you do not have to  PAY for EVERY SPECIFIC use of the   
   >>>>> roads except for a very very tiny percentage of toll roads, and   
   >>>>> certainly not your local collectors and residential roads.  But if ALL   
   >>>>> roads were made private enterprise there is NOTHING (except the gvt of   
   >>>>> course, but you don't want them involved) to stop the private owners   
   >>>>> from demanding that you PAY for EVERY SPECIFIC use of the road (or a   
   >>>>> subscription) in front of your house and charging whatever they wanted   
   >>>>> for it's use. Even if they sold it to you on a monthly or yearly basis   
   >>>>> instead of every trip they would still require you to pay them   
   >>>>> directly and for most roads in residential areas there would be no   
   >>>>> alternative, you either pay to back out of your driveway or you don't   
   >>>>> leave.   
   >>   
   >>>>Where do you think the money for the roads come from now? It's both a   
   >>>>per-use and time basis built into fuel and property taxes. Just because   
   >>>>you don't see it doesn't mean you or someone else doesn't pay it.   
   >>   
   >>> I've never said roads don't cost money.  There goes you strawman a   
   >>> second time.   
   >>   
   >>Your entire argument is based on people not paying, not getting a bill.   
   >>On my desk here I have the property tax bills for the properties I own.   
   >>Tell me again how this is different from what your horrible worst case   
   >>imagination of a private road system?   
   >>   
   >>>>>  And they could charge anything they want since in your model it's   
   >>>>> totally free enterprise, the market charges what it wants.   
   >>   
   >>>>My model? I haven't offered a model.   
   >>>>   
   >>   
   >>> So you are not in favor of totally free enterprise?   
   >>   
   >>You've created a model that is hardly anything close to what I would   
   >>propose, assign it to me, and then knock it down. I will not entertain   
   >>it.   
   >>   
   >>>>>   Court rulings now give us the right to use the public roads   
   >>>>> unfettered for NON-commercial use.   
   >>   
   >>>>It's long since erroded to "privilege" granted by government. Courts   
   >>>>have gone along with it.   
   >>   
   >>> No it hasn't.   
   >>   
   >>Tell that to a cop when you are at checkpoint. He'll tell you it's a   
   >>privilege.   
   >>   
   >>>>> And there are MANY people who pay   
   >>>>> no taxes due to their income level but actually get money paid to them   
   >>>>> every year with the earned income credit. The amount is more then   
   >>>>> enough to offset the $1000 they spend a year on gas taxes.  So there   
   >>>>> are many people currently using the system for free and who, under a   
   >>>>> "free market" system could be precluded from even traveling.   
   >>   
   >>>>And now we get to the root cause of your displeasure... you want to use   
   >>>>roads that OTHER people pay for. As to certain people not being able to   
   >>>>travel because of their finances... well there are ways to deal with   
   >>>>that... but that's neither here nor there for my purpose here.   
   >>   
   >>> Another strawman by you.  I've never made any such claim.  I'm merely   
   >>> pointing out the logical end point of those who make a fetish of the   
      
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