XPost: alt.activism, alt.politics.obama, alt.politics.republican   
   XPost: alt.politics.conservative   
   From: tim.howard@suddenlink.net   
      
   On 3/17/2011 3:26 AM, ray wrote:   
   > In article<4d81763a$0$28239$bbae4d71@news.suddenlink.net>,   
   >   Tim Howard  wrote:   
   >   
   >>>> Unions are responsible for the 40hr week, minimum wage, health and   
   >>>> safety rules, anti-harassment laws, pensions, employee health insurance,   
   >>>> and many other great things.  If that "damages" the wallets of business   
   >>>> owners, too damn bad.   
   >>>   
   >>> Except that unions have damaged many more wallets of employees and   
   >>> taxpayers as well.  So are we to be eternally indebted to unions because   
   >>> they led the charge for work conditions that would have happened anyway   
   >>> under government?   
   >>>   
   >> You think all those things "happened anyway under government" by   
   >> themselves?  They happened because of pressure from the workers and   
   >> because pro-worker candidates got elected.  The 50s were are most   
   >> prosperous era, and is it a coincidence that unionism was at its   
   >> highest?  Government employees are not slaves, when they get paid they   
   >> have a right to do what they want with their money, including paying   
   >> union dues and supporting unions and pro-union candidates.   
   >   
   > What I'm saying is that if there were never any unions in this country,   
   > the government would have eventually created laws and rights of workers.   
   > Do you really think that if there no unions, we would be working 70   
   > hours per week in dangerous work environments today???\   
      
   We would be a lot closer to that than what we have today yes.  You are   
   very naive.  You really trust big business and the government they   
   control to do anything voluntarily for anyone below themselves?   
      
   >   
   > Sure, unions had their place at one time.   
      
   The price of freedom is eternal vigilance, and the same can be said for   
   any other form of justice, including worker's rights.   
      
   But that time is up because they became too large and powerful.   
      
   You are blind to the present situation.  There is only about 10%   
   unionization, and that is non-agricultural.  Look at how much control   
   big business, especially non-unionized big business has over our   
   politics.  You are buying into a Republican-created myth.   
      
   Looking at the entire picture, we would have been better off without them.   
      
   You must be an owner, in management, or otherwise well-off to say that.   
      
      Our cost of living would be much lower today   
      
   "Our" wages would be even lower.   
      
     which means we would have many more manufacturing jobs in the US.   
      
   The reason we don't have manufacturing jobs is because of free trade.   
   Owners are allowed to ship all jobs oversees.  Don't blame unions for   
   that because it started in the 70s, when unions were already declining.   
     Coincidence?  Anyway, the only way workers could have saved their jobs   
   from going oversees is if they were being paid less than $1/hour.  Is   
   that the United States you want to live in?   
      
   We can't keep these unaffordable unions around because of   
   > what they did 50 years ago.   
   >   
   They started doing it 80 years ago.  And the fight continues.   
      
   --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05   
    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)