XPost: alt.activism, alt.politics.obama, alt.politics.republican   
   XPost: alt.politics.conservative   
   From: tim.howard@suddenlink.net   
      
   On 3/17/2011 5:10 PM, ray wrote:   
   > In article<4d8291b7$0$4362$bbae4d71@news.suddenlink.net>,   
   >   Tim Howard  wrote:   
   >   
   >>> What I'm saying is that if there were never any unions in this country,   
   >>> the government would have eventually created laws and rights of workers.   
   >>> Do you really think that if there no unions, we would be working 70   
   >>> hours per week in dangerous work environments today???\   
   >>   
   >> We would be a lot closer to that than what we have today yes.  You are   
   >> very naive.  You really trust big business and the government they   
   >> control to do anything voluntarily for anyone below themselves?   
   >   
   > What I trust is the greed of politicians to do anything to keep a job.   
   >   
   >>> Sure, unions had their place at one time.   
   >>   
   >> The price of freedom is eternal vigilance, and the same can be said for   
   >> any other form of justice, including worker's rights.   
   >   
   > So we must be slaves to these unions as long as this country free?   
   >   
   How are you a slave to unions?   
      
   >> But that time is up because they became too large and powerful.   
   >>   
   >> You are blind to the present situation.  There is only about 10%   
   >> unionization, and that is non-agricultural.  Look at how much control   
   >> big business, especially non-unionized big business has over our   
   >> politics.  You are buying into a Republican-created myth.   
   >   
   > No myth at all.  And let me ask: how many hundreds of billions have been   
   > pulled out of our wallets because of the Democrat support groups?  How   
   > is it we allow trial lawyers, unions and environmentalists to control   
   > our lives?   
   >   
   You are getting off on a tangent.  Corporations and their corporate   
   lawyers have more control over our lives than do unions and   
   environmentalists.   
      
   >> Looking at the entire picture, we would have been better off without them.   
   >>   
   >> You must be an owner, in management, or otherwise well-off to say that.   
   >   
   > Nope. Just a truck driver with rental property.   
   >   
   >>     Our cost of living would be much lower today   
   >>   
   >> "Our" wages would be even lower.   
   >   
   > No, proportionately lower.  What you could buy with ten dollars today   
   > could be bought with five dollars without the union movement.   
   >   
   No matter what you are purchasing?  BS.  You can't make such a blanket   
   statement.  You need to look at which products are made by union labor   
   if you are going to make that argument.   
      
   >>    which means we would have many more manufacturing jobs in the US.   
   >>   
   >> The reason we don't have manufacturing jobs is because of free trade.   
   >> Owners are allowed to ship all jobs oversees.  Don't blame unions for   
   >> that because it started in the 70s, when unions were already declining.   
   >>    Coincidence?  Anyway, the only way workers could have saved their jobs   
   >> from going oversees is if they were being paid less than $1/hour.  Is   
   >> that the United States you want to live in?   
   >   
   > Your figures are skewed.  First off, business owners were never   
   > prohibited from taking their jobs overseas.   
      
   But it wasn't practical economically or politically way back then.   
      
   That's not what our federal government does.   
      
   The federal government ought to take away any tax incentive for doing so   
   at least.  I think they ought to impose some tariffs which would go to   
   helping those who lost their jobs.   
      
   Secondly, there are great costs for transportation and   
   > warehousing with all these imported products.  It's just that even with   
   > those costs, it's cheaper to pay those costs and haul overseas products   
   > here.  If not for unions, we would still make a livable wage and be able   
   > to sell our products in our stores.  What the unions have done is price   
   > our country out of the world market.   
   >   
   >   
   >> We can't keep these unaffordable unions around because of   
   >>> what they did 50 years ago.   
   >>>   
   >> They started doing it 80 years ago.  And the fight continues.   
   >   
   > What fight?  As you stated, unions have been on a continual decline and   
   > will remain so.   
   >   
   That is why we need to start fighting hard again.  We need to start   
   unionizing private businesses again.   
      
   --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05   
    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)