[continued from previous message]   
      
   instigated huge atrocities exactly as was predicted by the Commanding   
   General, Wesley Clark, but also was undertaken in a way to humiliate   
   Russia. The same was true later under Obama with the bombing of Libya,   
   and of course the Iraq War in 2003. Russia didn’t like it, but   
   accepted it.   
      
   George W Bush, he just opened the doors, invited, frankly, everybody   
   and all the former Russian satellites into NATO. Also in 2008, W Bush,   
   the second Bush, invited Ukraine to join NATO. That was vetoed by   
   France and Germany, but it was kept open on the table in deference to   
   the United States. Just about every high-level US diplomat who had any   
   familiarity with the situation, including the current head of the CIA   
   and others, warned once again that this is extremely reckless and   
   dangerous. These are Russia’s red lines, the heart of their   
   geostrategic concerns. The US went ahead.   
      
   It continued. The US backed, some say helped instigate the 2014 Maidan   
   Uprising, which led immediately to almost direct efforts by what’s   
   called NATO, meaning the United States, to help integrate Ukraine more   
   or less within some kind of native style framework, sending weapons,   
   training and so on. The most significant current information that we   
   have is an important document of the Biden administration, September   
   1, 2021, you can read it on the White House webpage. I’ve quoted it a   
   number of times in material. You can find the truth out and it’s worth   
   paying attention to. It’s been silenced by the US press, I haven’t   
   seen a single reference to it. But we can be certain that Russian   
   intelligence was reading it. What it says, it calls for, I’m quoting   
   it, “Providing Ukraine with advanced anti-tank weapons, with a robust   
   training and exercise program in keeping with Ukraine’s status as a   
   NATO-enhanced opportunities partner.” Basically opens the door wider   
   for Ukraine to join NATO.   
      
   I’ll quote it again, “Finalized a strategic defense framework that   
   creates a foundation for enhancement of US-Ukraine strategic defense   
   and security cooperation with advanced weapons training and so on,   
   again in keeping with Ukraine status as a NATO-enhanced opportunities   
   partner.” Well, that’s last September. That’s the latest, most recent   
   official statement that we have about US policy to go back.   
      
   Bill Fletcher Jr.: Noam, so you’ve laid out important background on   
   the US side of this equation. What I want to try to get at right now,   
   then, is how do you analyze the Putin regime? Let me just cut to the   
   chase. On the night that the invasion was launched, Putin did   
   something that I thought was highly unusual. Instead of harping on   
   NATO, which probably would’ve scored him a lot of brownie points, he   
   ended up denouncing the national existence of Ukraine, calling it   
   national fiction. And elaborating things that he had started talking   
   about in the summer of 2021 himself that claimed that Russia, Ukraine,   
   and Belarus were all the same people.   
      
   And it was a very weird thing for Putin to be saying at that point,   
   when he’s trying to justify an invasion. He was basically saying, you   
   have no reason to exist, we’re coming in. And so I want to know from   
   you, how do you analyze the Putin regime? It’s so curious, Noam, it’s   
   like the Russians are very tied in with transnational capital, yet you   
   have a regime that has a nationalist expansionist agenda. What do you   
   make of that?   
      
   Noam Chomsky: Well, that was indeed the announcement on the eve of the   
   invasion. And I presume he was stating what he has already always   
   believed. As he stated publicly many times along with many other   
   Russians, the decision of Gorbachev to break up the Russian, the   
   Soviet system, which was in fact an imperial system in which Russia   
   had non-Russian satellites that it controlled, breaking up. The Soviet   
   Union, he said, was a great tragedy and strategic error. This is often   
   quoted. He also said something else which is rarely quoted. He said   
   that anyone who wants to reestablish the Soviet Union and its former   
   borders is out of his mind. And in fact, that’s true.   
      
   Russia has, whatever Putin may believe, they certainly haven’t even   
   the minimal capacity to do anything like… Russia is a state with an   
   economy roughly the size of Spain and Italy, a weak, kleptocratic, raw   
   material exporting state. With a big army, huge army, and advanced   
   weapons, nuclear weapons. But a declining kleptocracy based on raw   
   materials export. It’s not about to conquer anybody. Inconceivable.   
   Ukraine is indeed a special case, as it’s been for 30 years. Well,   
   that was Putin’s statement. But there were also official Russian   
   statements at the same time about what their precise goals were in   
   Ukraine. They were coming from Sergey Lavrov, foreign minister, other   
   leading officials. They stated that the main goals were neutralization   
   and demilitarization of Ukraine. Secondarily, establishment of what   
   they call security, meaning taking over the Donbas regions. Crimea is   
   just off the table. You may not like it, but it’s a fact of life.   
   Those were the official statements about the invasion.   
      
   What Putin has in the back of his mind is of interest to people   
   concerned with his mind. I’m not. I’m interested in the policies.   
   Well, those policies are basically within the framework of what   
   everyone knows is the possible negotiated settlement. It’s been true   
   for a long time before the invasion, it was quite clear, stated   
   clearly, that any peaceful settlement of the Ukraine conflict will   
   have to involve what Lavrov called the main goals: neutralization of   
   Ukraine and what they call demilitarization, which means removing   
   military weapons that threaten Russia. In other words, in status,   
   they’re very much like Mexico.   
      
   It’s not written on paper, but everyone with a brain functioning knows   
   that Mexico cannot join a Chinese run hostile military alliance   
   within, to quote Biden’s position, within a Chinese regime enhanced   
   opportunities partner with China, providing robust training and   
   exercise programs with the Chinese army, and placing weapons on the   
   Mexican border. All of that is just so far out of the question that   
   you can’t even begin to discuss it. Well, that’s essentially what   
   Lavrov, the official statement, was proposing for Ukraine. Whether it   
   could have worked we don’t know, because the effort wasn’t made to try   
   it and see if it could work. Maybe. Instead, what we had was Biden’s   
   policy statement, which I quoted now.   
      
   Bill Fletcher Jr.: But here’s my concern, Noam. In 1994, the   
   Ukrainians and Russians signed the Budapest accord in which, as you   
   know, the Ukrainians gave up their nuclear weapons. And they had the   
   third largest nuclear arsenal on the planet. But they gave it up on a   
   condition that Russia would never attack them. And it would be   
   interesting if they hadn’t signed that pact, what kind of discussion   
   we’d be having today. But leaving that aside for a second, that was   
   the agreement. There was very little interest in Ukraine joining NATO   
   until 2014 when Crimea is seized and the Russians start supporting the   
   secessionist movements. And so I’m concerned. When you’re talking   
   about the issue of Russians warning security, it doesn’t sound like   
   they want security, it sounds more like they wanted a satellite state.   
      
   Noam Chomsky: Is Mexico a satellite state of the United States?   
      
   Bill Fletcher Jr.: That’s a very interesting question. For much of the   
      
   [continued in next message]   
      
   --- SoupGate-DOS v1.05   
    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)