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   forces, which by 2013, 2014 were mostly Jihadi forces, which were   
   fighting against the recognized government of Syria. The government   
   that has a seat in the United Nations and is internationally   
   recognized, they were trying to overthrow it. That’s a Russian ally.   
   The CIA was providing advanced weapons to the opposition forces,   
   advanced anti-tank weapons, which did stop the Assad armies. Quite   
   predictably, it didn’t take a genius to predict it. I did, many other   
   people did. The Russians reacted.   
      
   They came into the war, really for the first time, moved in to destroy   
   the CIA-supplied anti-tank weapons. Then they went on to continue to   
   support Assad’s brutal, vicious effort to reconquer Syria, horrible   
   atrocities and so on. Technically it’s not criminal, certainly not   
   illegal, but it’s criminal in the moral sense, not in the legal sense.   
   Well, that’s [crosstalk] Syria. That’s what happened in Syria.   
      
   Bill Fletcher Jr.: Yeah. Well, I mean, if we had more time, I’d like   
   to go more into Syria, in part because I think that one of the things   
   that you’re discounting is that there was a real uprising in Syria.   
      
   Noam Chomsky: In Syria -   
      
   Bill Fletcher Jr.: In Syria, there was a real uprising, and the US was   
   very ambivalent about that uprising for a while. But I wanted to get…   
   That could be for our next interview Noam, but for this one -   
      
   Noam Chomsky: You have to understand in Syria there was an uprising   
   that was part of the Arab Spring.   
      
   Bill Fletcher Jr.: Right.   
      
   Noam Chomsky: A democratic reformist uprising. Assad crushed it with   
   extreme violence led on to the civil war -   
      
   Bill Fletcher Jr.: Correct. Yeah.   
      
   Noam Chomsky: …In which gradually the Jihadi forces pretty much took   
   over. You can debate the details. But by 2013, 2014, according to the   
   most informed observers that I know, there was a largely Jihadi based   
   opposition. Which the US was supporting, attempting to overthrow the   
   government, a brutal, murderous government, responsible for most of   
   the crimes, but happened to be the internationally recognized   
   government, which is a Russian ally. So when it got to the point that   
   the CIA was providing advanced weapons by 2015, not surprisingly,   
   predictably the Russians move in to destroy them. Then it went on to   
   the rest of the destruction of Syria. Is it pretty? No, it’s very   
   ugly. Nobody believes that the Russians are saints, but they are an   
   imperial power, minor in comparison with the United States. As I said   
   before as an economy, they’re on a par with Italy and Spain. They have   
   advanced weapons. We don’t have to recall that Russia was invaded,   
   virtually destroyed, twice in the 20th century by Germany alone.   
      
   Now the idea of an advanced, a hostile military alliance run by the   
   world’s most powerful and indeed most aggressive state, which is   
   providing in last September, enhancing its strategic and defense   
   cooperation with Ukraine with a robust and exercise program in keeping   
   with Ukraine’s status as a NATO enhanced opportunities partner,   
   serious threat to Russia translate [crosstalk].   
      
   Bill Fletcher Jr.: Is it really -   
      
   Noam Chomsky: …China and Mexico.   
      
   Bill Fletcher Jr.: Is it really a threat? I mean, we’re talking about   
   2022. It’s not 1941.   
      
   Noam Chomsky: I’m talking about 2021.   
      
   Bill Fletcher Jr.: Right. Okay. Right. So 2021. But is it really a   
   threat? I mean, there’s the likelihood of a massive land assault on   
   Russia is about as likely as my going to the moon tomorrow. This is   
   the 21st century, we’re not talking about Operation Barbarossa of   
   1941. And Russia has the most nuclear weapons on this planet.   
      
   I mean, one of the concerns, Noam, is that when we talk about security   
   and this concern for Russian security, I start wondering, well, who’s   
   concerned about Ukrainian security? And who’s concerned about the   
   security of the countries that are bordering on Russia that seem to   
   have been in a complete panic after the Soviet Union collapse. Where   
   does that fit in terms of some sort of more comprehensive approach to   
   security?   
      
   Noam Chomsky: Let’s take a look. There was no threat whatsoever to the   
   security of Austria, Finland, the Baltic countries, Germany. The West   
   is now euphoric about the fact that the Russian military is incapable   
   of capturing cities 30 kilometers from its border. There was no threat   
   to those countries expressed or conceivable. If you want to, there is   
   a threat from the United States. Why do you think world opinion   
   regards the United States as the most dangerous country in the world?   
   The world opinion, overwhelmingly, nobody else is [crosstalk]. Okay.   
      
   Bill Fletcher Jr.: Right.   
      
   Noam Chomsky: There’s a reason for that. The United States does what   
   it wants. Invaded Iraq, destroyed the country, killed hundreds of   
   thousands of people, laid the basis for ethnic conflicts that are   
   tearing the region apart, the basis for ISIS. Remember the Nuremberg   
   tribunal. That’s not foreign, back in history. Invasion of   
   Afghanistan, not far back in history. The United States remains a   
   violent power.   
      
   We don’t talk about it, but in the Global South, they can see that the   
   United States right now, right at this moment is purposely,   
   consciously enhancing some of the major criminal acts in the world   
   right now. Right now, millions of Afghans, after 20 years of US   
   invasion and destruction, right now millions of Afghans are facing   
   literal starvation. There’s food in the markets, there are people who   
   have some money, but they have to watch their children starve because   
   they can’t go to the bank to get a little bit of money to buy food in   
   the market. Why? Because the United States has stolen their money.   
      
   Bill Fletcher Jr.: But Noam, see, I hear you and I’m not here.   
      
   Noam Chomsky: That’s just the very beginning.   
      
   Bill Fletcher Jr.: I understand, but I’m not here to defend the United   
   States, as you well know. But what I am saying is that there are   
   multiple imperial powers on this planet.   
      
   Noam Chomsky: Right.   
      
   Bill Fletcher Jr.: Right. And one of the things about the alleged   
   Russian fear of what was happening in the Ukraine is that up until   
   2014, Ukraine was not interested in getting into NATO. But when the   
   Russians intervened in the internal affairs of Ukraine, grabbing   
   Crimea, promoting the secessionist movements, those things changed. So   
   all of a sudden you have, then, a growing sympathy, which is   
   completely logical because the country is being torn apart.   
      
   Noam Chomsky: It’s not pretty, but it’s very logical. You’re skipping   
   what happened in 2014. In 2014, there was an uprising or coup, call it   
   what you want, which threw out the elected government, parliamentary   
   government, refused the offer of the president to have a referendum or   
   a vote and caused him to flee the country and return to the country   
   with direct US involvement. Do I have to repeat to you the leaked   
   material about Victoria Nuland? Now our point person on Ukraine   
   discussing secretly who we are going to work to bring to be the next   
   president. Should it be Yats? Should it be somebody else? Direct US   
   involvement to establish a government that would be pro US instead of   
   the former pro Russian government.   
      
   Well, Russia could have just stood by and clapped, as we could have   
   stood by and clapped if a pro Chinese government was established in   
   Mexico calling for a military alliance with China. I rather doubt that   
      
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   --- SoupGate-DOS v1.05   
    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)