ace6ae2c   
   XPost: rec.arts.books.tolkien   
   From: giles@poetic.com   
      
   On 9/8/2011 3:56 PM, Count Menelvagor wrote:   
   > On Sep 3, 6:45 pm, Christopher Kreuzer   
   > wrote:   
   >> On Sep 2, 1:35 am, Christopher Kreuzer   
   >> wrote:   
   >>   
   >>> Every time I find a reasonably interesting archaism, I'm going to post   
   >>> it here.   
   >>   
   >> Found a few more (I'm sure a list has been compiled before, but just   
   >> throwing them out there in case they could spark discussion on   
   >> etymology and things like that).   
   >>   
   >> dwimmer-crafty (Eomer's description of Sarumam)   
   >> cf. Dwimordene (Gandalf's poetic naming of Lorien in Edoras)   
   >   
   > i really like these "dwimmer-" words.   
   >   
   >> The following are less archaic, but just old words:   
   >>   
   >> habergeon   
   >> carcanet   
   >>   
   >> Both from Bilbo's song of Earendil.   
   >>   
   >> Habergeon: "a sleeveless jacket of chain-mail, shorter than the   
   >> hauberk"   
   >> Carcanet: "a richly decorative collar"   
   >   
   >   
   >>  From other poems you have 'ostler' (stableman), 'strand' (shore of a   
   >> sea, lake, or large river). To many, those will be familiar terms, but   
   >> to some they won't be.   
   >>   
   >> And after looking through the poems, I noticed that the song the eagle   
   >> sings to the people of Minas Tirith is couched with terms like: ye and   
   >> hath. Again, completely deliberate.   
   >>   
   >> The real switch into an ancient mode of speech is with Isildur's   
   >> scroll that Gandalf finds in Minas Tirith (seemeth, loseth, fadeth,   
   >> saith, misseth). But there are other examples in formal speech and   
   >> transmission of messages. I already mentioned the messages from Elrond   
   >> and Arwen passed on via Halbarad, and the archaic form of speech there   
   >> compared to what we hear from them in person elsewhere, and this is   
   >> seen again in the message passed on to Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli from   
   >> Galadriel.   
   >>   
   >> When we read Galadriel's speech in Lothlorien, it seems normal (maybe   
   >> she was adopting Westron forms of speech, or maybe the hobbits   
   >> remembered or recounted it as such), but when Gandalf passes on the   
   >> messages (in 'The White Rider'), they are replete with thee, thou and   
   >> thy. Admittedly, the first two are poetic, and the third is clearly   
   >> made up by Gandalf to spare Gimli's feelings (I'm joking!), but I find   
   >> the differences in style fascinating.   
   >>   
   >> Two more examples. The scene where Aragorn is crowned starts with   
   >> "thine and thy heirs" from Aragorn to Faramir. And the scene where the   
   >> minstrel of Gondor sings the lay of Frodo of the Nine Fingers and the   
   >> Ring of Doom, includes in his acknowledgment of those present the   
   >> phrase "and ye sons of Elrond". Admittedly, "you" would be a bit rude   
   >> there, but can anyone explain the form of 'ye' being used there? Why   
   >> use 'ye' for the sons of Elrond and not for the other groups assembled   
   >> there? Is it different when addressing a group of two than when   
   >> addressing a larger group?   
   >   
   > i wonder if tolkien was going by ear and what "sounds good" here.   
   > although he would have known that old english had a dual pronoun   
   > "git" (pronounced "yit," and presumably no relation to the modern   
   > pejorative), and iirc this form survived into the 13th century. or   
   > maybe he used it because they're elves and therefore better, so   
   > deserve a more highfalutin form of the pronoun. who knows?   
      
   Even if the form does survive, it was uncommon in Old English and even   
   more so in Middle English (and dialectical there).  Besides, what   
   readers would understand "git sons of Elrond"?  "Ye"  would be familiar   
   to many of Tolkien's original audience from the KJV and the Book of   
   Common Prayer and Shakespeare....texts a bit removed from most of us in   
   21st century.   
      
      
   >   
   > you will doubtless have seen the letter where tolkien comments on his   
   > use of archaisms. he makes a number of poits: 1. the archaisms are   
   > usually fairly mild (no "wottest thou," etc.); 2. the modern   
   > equivalent is often both trivializing and long-winded. he gives as an   
   > example théoden's remarks to gandalf ("nay, gandalf. you do not know   
   > your own skill as a healer ...")   
   >   
   > and here's another archaism: "rede" (early in book iii; but he   
   > immediately provides a synonym).   
      
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    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)