6c07f095   
   XPost: rec.arts.books.tolkien   
   From: joedoe3@gmail.com   
      
   derek schrieb am 26.09.2011 03:25:   
   > On Sep 25, 1:48 pm, Geza Giedke  wrote:   
   >> derek schrieb am 17.09.2011 03:19:   
   >>> Yes.  I think it chose Smeagol, but made a mistake, so it chose to   
   >>> find a new "host", when it slipped off his finger for Bilbo to find.   
   >>> It may not have been able to "choose its own ilk" there, but it knew   
   >>> that Bilbo was the only creature around who might get it closer to   
   >>> Sauron.   
   >>   
   >> i very much doubt this: any Orc would have been better in this respect   
   >> (getting the Ring to Sauron). Recall that according to Gandalf "another   
   >> Power was at work there". Moreover,   
   >   
   > Of course it was, but do you doubt the Ring was trying to return to   
   > its maker?  If you do, there's no point in continuing the discussion   
   > because we have no common ground to work from.  If you don't, then you   
      
   well, Gandalf says it was trying to get back to its maker, so there's   
   little reason to doubt this; though I am not 100% convinced that it   
   wanted to be back to Sauron specifically or just any sufficiently   
   powerful owner - I always thought the Ring  would have been fine with   
   Gandalf, Galadriel or Saruman as well.   
      
   > have to wonder _why_ it didn't slip off Gollum's finger and have an   
   > Orc find it.   
      
   I think, the Ring simply sensed it was time to move on ("he couldn't   
   make any use of Gollum anymore" Gandalf says somewhere). But getting   
   lost is not easy if you're somebody's precious so he took the first   
   chance he got; later, the Ring also tried to leave Bilbo (who warned   
   Frodo that it "needed looking after") but Bilbo was careful enough to   
   not lose it. The Ring could try to slip of and tempt people to take it   
   but it had no say in who found it, I think.   
      
   > The simple fact would seem to be that an Orc was no more   
   > likely to return it to Sauron than Gollum,. For two reasons: they   
   > didn't like to leave their caves much more than Gollum did, and they   
   > were _corrupt_ - they would want the Ring for their own, just as   
   > Gollum did.   
      
   I think any Orc (or any evil creature) would have led to the Ring   
   quickly making its way to Sauron: some Orc or Troll chieftain setting   
   himself up as a Lord and ruling with the power of the Ring would have   
   caught Sauron's attention pretty quickly if he were not drawn to Mordor   
   before (Gollum was drawn there even without the Ring once Sauron had   
   risen again) I suspect none of the bad guys were strong and power-hungry   
   enough to have any chance against Sauron even with the Ring (maybe   
   Saruman, possibly the Balrog, Smaug - I doubt it).   
      
      
   > Certainly "another power" is at work - that other power   
   > is making sure it's _Bilbo_ who finds the Ring.  Imagine what might   
   > have happened if one of the Dwarves had been the one...  But that   
   > power is subtle - it places a character who is _able_ to make the trek   
   > to return the Ring to Sauron, into a place where the Ring can find   
   > him.  It doesn't promise the Ring that it will be able to have its way   
   > with that character.   
      
   the power is subtle - certainly; but I thought it's subtle in letting   
   possibly the only person find it who is (by his lack of ambition, good   
   heart, and stubbornness) capable of keeping it safe and secret, giving   
   the Wise time to take counsel and come up with a plan.   
   The capability of _Bilbo_ to bring the Ring to Mordor is IMHO not part   
   of anybody's calculations (and its actually debatable whether he had the   
   capability at all...)   
      
   >>> It did the same with Isildur - it may not have actually chosen   
   >>> Isildur, but it would certainly have preferred Isildur to the others   
   >>> present who might have taken it in hand - and yet when it came to it,   
   >>> Isildur didn't advance its agenda, so it slipped off his finger at an   
   >>> inopportune time (if you're Isildur - not so inopportune for the   
   >>> Ring).   
   >   
   > Is that not exactly what I said about Gollum?   
      
   yes, I didn't question this; I was just wondering why it left Isildur so   
   soon - before having exploited all the possibilities in dominating a   
   powerful Numenorean...   
      
   >> I somehow did not get the impression that the Ring was explicitly doing   
   >> Sauron's bidding   
   >   
   > Absolutely not.  The Ring has some limited sentience - I think that   
   > much is obvious - but its "agenda" has nothing to do with Sauron's   
   > bidding, it is merely an automaton with a limited number of goals, the   
   > most important of which is to return to its rightful owner.   
      
   this I'm not fully convinced; I thought it's mainly trying to find the   
   most powerful (and evil or corruptable) owner, with Sauron being the   
   best target at present; but I'm not sure if it would have slipped of   
   Saruman's finger (Gandalf or Galadriel when they hypothesize about   
   taking the Ring never mention that they'll lose it to Sauron but only   
   that they'd become evil themselves   
      
   regards   
    Geza   
      
   --   
                               Now come ye all,   
   who have courage and hope!  My call harken   
   to flight, to freedom       in far places!   
                                         Lays of Beleriand   
      
   --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05   
    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)