XPost: rec.arts.books.tolkien
From: Troels@ThisIsFake.invalid
In message
sean_q spoke these staves:
>
> On 9/12/2011 3:14 PM, Stan Brown wrote:
>>
>> On Sun, 11 Sep 2011 23:09:45 -0800, sean_q wrote:
>>>
>>> I think the DL at least knew (from his spies) that "Strider" was
>>> a Ranger, ie one of those pesky Dunedain (Numenoreans in exile).
>>
>> *Did* he? Did Sauron have any certain knowledge...
>
> I don't know what Sauron knew for certain. Just hints and clues.
We do not know for certain -- neither what Sauron certainly know nor
what he guessed ;-)
It is, however, in my opinion a reasonable guess that Sauron knew
/about/ this "Strider" character -- knowing that he was one of the
leaders of the Rangers and also (of this I am far more confident)
that the Rangers were the remnants of the Dúnedain of the North
Kingdom. It is also, in my view, /likely/ that Sauron was uncertain
about the fate of the line of Elendil, but that he knew that it had
survived until the death of Arathorn II or thereabouts (let's not
quibble too much about the exact point -- I'd say he lost track of
them at some point after Arathorn I, most likely, IMO, after the
death of Arathorn II). It is, however (and still in my estimate),
unlikely that Sauron guessed that this Strider was of the line of
Elendil.
>> ...that the last of the Dúnedain -- or at least the last of the
>> line of Elendil -- had not perished with Arvedui, last King of
>> Arthedain?
>
> He knew that the Royal Line had ended in the South. And must have
> known about the Dunedain in the North but not that an heir of
> Isildur was among them.
I believe that Sauron knew that the line of Elendil had survived in
the North long after the death of Arvedui. The whole line of
chieftains made no secret of their heritage in the naming of all the
kings, since they all contain the ar- element used by the royal
family since Argeleb I who took the throne of Arthedain in 1349 in
token of their claim to the throne of all Arnor.
If anything it would be the absence of any clear leader using a name
beginning with Ar- that would confuse Sauron, and this appears to
have happened only with the death of Arathorn (and Aragorn's use of
various other names in all his dealing with outsiders).
>> Sauron seems remarkably ill informed about the doings in Eriador,
>> or west of the Misty Mountains generally. If I were aiming at
>> world domination, I would make it my business to have an
>> extensive spy network in enemy territory. But Sauron seems to
>> have neglected intelligence gathering almost completely. And it
>> can't be because he was relying on Saruman, for their alliance
>> (or Saruman's subjection) was comparatively recent.
The history of the chieftains of the Rangers show also a history of
fighting against Sauron's spies. Though not quite so obvious as east
of the Misty Mountains, it seems clear to me that Eriador was
nonetheless also watched. Sauron's agents, however, would mostly
have been quite obvious -- you can't hope to hide an orc in Bree, for
instance, and so they may not have had a chance to get close to any
of the Rangers and learn what name this "Strider" was using among his
own people.
> He seems to have agents in Bree at any rate:
Most of the agents here were, if I recall correctly, originally
agents of Saruman who were turned to Sauron's use by their fear of
the Nazgûl. 'The Hunt for the Ring' contains, if memory serves, an
account of how the Ringwraiths caught the Southerner that leaves the
Prancing Pony together with Bill Ferny already before he reached Bree
and found that he was one of Saruman's agents. They then turned him
to their own service.
> We know from the Tale of Years that Saruman began spying on
> Gandalf as well as keeping agents in Bree and the Southfarthing
> around 2953. However, the "certain people" mentioned above seem to
> be Sauron's:
Indeed, but this is /after/ the Ringwraiths came north in search of
the One Ring in the summer of 3018. I know of no evidence that
Sauron employed Men as spies for him in Eriador before that point.
> I suspect that some of the "dark things" in the following passage
> are also in the DL's service:
Indeed.
> "If Gondor, Boromir, has been a stalwart tower, we have played
> another part. Many evil things there are that your strong walls
> and bright swords do not stay.
And surely some of these evil things are more than that -- I think it
is well nigh certain that some of them were also in the direct employ
of Sauron and thus served as his spies.
> "Strider" I am to one fat man who lives within a day's march of
> foes that would freeze his heart or lay his little town in ruin,
> if he were not guarded ceaselessly."
Except for the "lay his little town in ruin" I would have said that
this surely must refer to the wights of the barrows, but this would
be the only indication of aggressive (outside their own territory of
the Barrow Downs) plans of the wights. It could, I suppose, still
refer to the wights, but I am by no means sure about it -- for all I
know, it could refer to something else entirely. (Of course the
wights were also in the service of Angmar and through him of Sauron,
but as far as we know, there was no communication between the wights
and any other agents of Sauron until the Witch-king came to the
Downs.)
--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail is
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subtle and quick to anger.
- Gildor Inglorion, /The Lord of the Rings/ (J.R.R. Tolkien)
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