XPost: rec.arts.books.tolkien   
   From: Troels@ThisIsFake.invalid   
      
   In message    
   Paul S. Person  spoke these staves:   
   >   
   > On Sun, 09 Oct 2011 22:29:02 +0200, Troels Forchhammer   
   >  wrote:   
   >>   
      
      
      
   >> if the story broadly speaking follows the same story-line and   
   >> the film-makers say that the films are based on Tolkien's /The   
   >> Hobbit/, then it is, in my book, an adaptation.   
   [...]   
      
   > So /Brazil/ is an adaptation of /1984/? It doesn't claim to be,   
   > but I have always thought of it as such.   
      
   I think the claim of being an adaptation is at least as important as   
   following roughly the same story-line (I also think it is a good idea   
   to have some characters and places with the same names, but this is   
   probably not an absolute requirement: I believe that /Oh Brother,   
   Where Art Thou/ is generally viewed as an adaptation of the   
   /Odyssey/, but the names aren't the same).   
      
   >> I could, for instance, easily imagine that it would have   
   >> required a huge amount of new material to deal with the   
   >> underlying thematic content of LotR in such a way that Tolkien   
   >> would feel that it adequately represented his own ideas and   
   >> position.   
   >   
   > I doubt very much that /any/ additional material is needed to turn   
   > /LOTR/ into a movie. And I think that PJ's films clearly show   
   > this. As your dislike for some of those additions clearly shows.   
      
   I am not sure that this follows /necessarily/. If you speak of an   
   adaptation of what I might call the 'surface plot', then sure -- that   
   can be done without adding anything, but I don't think that such an   
   adaptation would be much more successful in conveying an ethical and   
   philosophical position that Tolkien would feel 'adequately   
   represented his own ideas and position' -- that might require   
   something more, some additions that show this in the story-telling   
   language of the film rather than the language of the book.   
      
      
   [The level of craftsmanship of film-makers]   
      
   > I am not particularly knowledgeable myself; I just watch a /lot/   
   > of movies   
      
   So there you already have a large advantage on me ;)   
      
   > Some of the people directly responsible for making a movie (mostly   
   > directors, although this certainly applies to all the crafts   
   > involved in making a movie) are masters, and some are journeymen.   
      
   Sorry, what I meant to say was that I am aware that there is a strong   
   element of craftsmanship to making a good film (just as there is a   
   strong element of craftsmanship to making a good painting), but I do   
   not think that I am qualified to attempt to evaluate the level of   
   skill or craftsmanship of various film-makers, and so I must restrict   
   myself to speaking of my personal preference -- and of the relation   
   between the adaptation and the original.   
      
   > I don't see the /LOTR/ films as fantasy; there is almost nothing   
   > fantastic in them, given their context: JRRT's legendarium. I see   
   > them as action/adventure films,   
      
   I may be using the term more loosely than is customary -- I think of   
   'fantasy' as referring to the setting, and then add something to say   
   what kind of story is told within that setting (action, adventure,   
   love-story, whodunnit, etc. etc.).   
      
   I agree that the New Line LotR films are more action/adventure than   
   is the book.   
      
   On the other hand I am not sure that a discussion about the genre of   
   the films (and/or the book) is really relevant to the point I was   
   trying to make.   
      
      
      
   > It is /not knowing what will happen next/ that creates suspense;   
   > and it is the /characters/ not knowing what will happen next that   
   > allows the same suspense to be felt on rereading the book, and is   
   > the /actors/ convincing us that the characters do not know what   
   > will happen next that allows the same suspense to be felt every   
   > time the film is seen.   
      
   I think your points about suspense, cliff-hangers and not knowing   
   what is going to happen next are all well made and valid (sorry -- I   
   need to cut my answer short here as I need to be off in 5 minutes . .   
   .. But I don't think I could add anything relevant to this).   
      
   --   
   Troels Forchhammer    
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