XPost: rec.arts.books.tolkien   
   From: Troels@ThisIsFake.invalid   
      
   In message    
   Stan Brown  spoke these staves:   
   >   
   > On Mon, 9 Jan 2012 03:43:38 +0000 (UTC), Steuard Jensen wrote:   
   >>   
   >> In message , Stan   
   >> Brown  wrote:   
   >>   
   >> In message , Stan   
   >> Brown  wrote:   
   >>>   
   >>> On Fri, 6 Jan 2012 15:18:05 +0000 (UTC), Paul Ciszek wrote:   
   >>>>   
   >>>> A related question: Had elven births already tapered off to   
   >>>> zero by the time of LotR? Was that how the Elves knew they were   
   >>>> being phased out?   
   >>   
   >> I hadn't had the impression that Elven births were tapering off   
   >> at all, unless by choice.   
      
   There is, of course, also something about Elves usually not begetting   
   children in times of war, which might have influenced life in the   
   last hundred or two hundred years of the Third Age, depending on how   
   'hot' the conflict should be for them to stop (but I would guess at   
   least the last 70-ish years of the Third Age from Sauron declaring   
   himself openly in Mordor).  I suppose this might even be sufficient   
   to explain the apparent lack of Elvish children mentioned in /LotR/,   
   as most Elves born before would appear adult ('Not until the fiftieth   
   year did the Eldar attain the stature and shape in which their lives   
   would afterwards endure, and for some a hundred years would pass   
   before they were full-grown.' - 'Laws and Customs among the Eldar',   
   /Morgoth's Ring/)   
      
      
      
   >> It's not clear to me that younger Elves would have felt that they   
   >> were being "phased out" at all, unless being surrounded almost   
   >> entirely by ancient relatives weary of life tended to rub off on   
   >> them. Which sounds awfully plausible, come to think of it. Elven   
   >> society in the late Third Age really wouldn't have been much fun.   
      
   According to /The Hobbit/ the Elves in Rivendell were a pretty   
   frolicksome bunch before Sauron came out in the open in Mordor again   
   . . . ;-)   
      
   A fully considered answer to that would have to include comments in   
   Athrabeth about the high hope and such, but I don't think I have time   
   for that today. However, I don't think the Elves, even the older,   
   were given to that kind of hopelessness -- to a bit of nostalgia,   
   certainly, but the weariness of life would not be the norm even among   
   the older Elves in Middle-earth (because those who felt that way   
   would take the first ship out of Middle-earth).   
      
   >>> So the fact that the travelers spent a month there and saw no   
   >>> children at least suggests there were no children in Lórien after   
   >>> all.   
   >>   
   >> This has already been mentioned, but you seem to be making a much   
   >> stronger claim here than I would have thought was justified.   
   >   
   > "Suggests" is a stronger claim?  Wow!  :-)   
      
   I think the 'stronger claim' is calling it a 'fact' that 'the   
   travelers spent a month there and saw no children' -- at least that   
   seems to me a fairly strong claim based on the available evidence.   
      
   >> We really don't get descriptions of much at all of the   
   >> Fellowship's time in Lorien,   
   [...]   
   >> Tolkien never took the time to describe it. Is there an explicit   
   >> comment like "Weird, no kids in the whole place!" that I'm   
   >> overlooking here?   
   >   
   > No, of course you're not overlooking anything.  Lack of evidence   
   > is not evidence against; at most it can be, erm, suggestive. But   
   > look at Pippin's time in Gondor: children were commented on   
   > repeatedly, and he spent significant time with them.  In that   
   > light, I would think it natural that if Frodo or another hobbit   
   > had encountered any children in Lórien, it would have been   
   > recorded.  The fact that it's not recorded doesn't prove that it   
   > didn't happen, but at least we can wonder why, if it happened, it   
   > wasn't recorded.   
      
   I think that is going about it from the opposite side.  I think it is   
   more conducive for our understanding to ask why it /is/ being   
   recorded in the case of Pippin in Gondor, but not in Lórien or Rohan   
   (Rohirric children are being spoken /about/, but they are never   
   actually observed, never seen 'first hand' as it were, except for the   
   young adults who help defend the Hornburg and the Deeping Wall).   
      
   I would agree that the mentioning of children in a society does play   
   a role, and that mentioning children in Mannish societies, and in   
   particular allowing them to appear first hand in Gondor (and the   
   Shire!), is a way of showing that these are the younger Children of   
   Ilúvatar, and that the coming age will start the Age of Men.   
   Similarly the absence of descriptions of children for both the Elves   
   and the Dwarves makes it clear that these races are 'fading' -- but   
   this does /not/ necessarily imply that no children can be found;   
   rather that Tolkien is deliberately using the children as a literary   
   device to show something about the race in question: it has to do   
   with the role of that society in the future of Middle-earth -- or   
   perhaps rather the future of that society within Middle-earth. In   
   Gondor and the Shire we meet children first-hand, and this helps   
   these societies to appear more vibrant: as the /estel/ of Middle-   
   earth. In Rohan we hear about children, but we don't encounter them   
   first-hand, which makes this society appear to also have a future in   
   Middle-earth, but not quite as vibrant as Gondor and the Shire -- the   
   Rohirrim will not be driving the evolution of Middle-earth   
   civilisation. Elves and Dwarves are being phased out of the life of   
   Middle-earth, the elder races are fading, and this is shown   
   symbolically by not referring to their children, even if they exist.   
      
   It may be that there were no children in Lórien -- we cannot know,   
   but if the above analysis is correct, then the fact that Tolkien   
   omits to mention them is not in itself indicative of anything: it   
   doesn't suggest anything with respect to the presence of children.   
   Thus the suggestion that there were no Elvish children should be   
   supported by other arguments -- for instance, as I mention above,   
   that the Eldar generally avoided begetting children in times of war,   
   and thus that any Eldar in TA3017 would be at least, 66 years old   
   (counting from Sauron revealing himself openly in Mordor in TA2951).   
   This would, of course, require that we extend the 'laws and customs   
   among the Eldar' to also apply to the Silvan Elves of Lórien.   
      
   --   
   Troels Forchhammer    
   Valid e-mail is    
   Please put [AFT], [RABT] or 'Tolkien' in subject.   
      
       They both savoured the strange warm glow of being much   
       more ignorant than ordinary people, who were only ignorant   
       of ordinary things.   
    - Discworld scientists at work, /Equal Rites/ (Terry Pratchett)   
      
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