XPost: rec.arts.books.tolkien   
   From: Troels@ThisIsFake.invalid   
      
   In message    
   Steuard Jensen  spoke these staves:   
   >   
   > In message , Troels   
   > Forchhammer  wrote:   
   >>   
   >> Another argument that carries a lot of weight for myself is   
   >> related to Tom's origin, not the Dutch doll thing, but as the   
   >> /genius loci/, the 'spirit of the (vanishing) Oxford and   
   >> Berkshire countryside.'   
   [...]   
   >   
   > I agree, but I haven't brought it up in my "anti-essay" for two   
   > reasons. First, it's blatantly non-canonical as it dates to before   
   > LotR was written or even imagined (and to the best of my knowledge   
   > did not at the time relate to Middle-earth at all, regardless of   
   > the eventual connection).   
      
   As you know I don't think the idea of 'canon' is useful when applied in   
   any sense more narrow than 'demonstrably authentic Tolkien writings' so   
   this doesn't bother me at all ;-)   
      
   > That makes it suggestive but not really convincing to someone   
   > determined to disagree.   
      
   The only argument that can potentially have that power is the   
   references, including (and possible especially) the statement in   
   /Letters/, that Tom B. would eventually lose to Sauron. All the other   
   arguments are circumstantial or suggestive. What you have is a large   
   number of indicators that all suggest that Tom B. is /not/ Aulë (or,   
   for that matter, any other Vala), and if you want to convince those who   
   reject the first part, then you will, I think, need every indicator   
   that you can get ;-)   
      
   Incidentally, speaking of origins, have you read the article on   
   Goldberry in /Tolkien Studies/ 8? While not the most impressive source   
   study that I have come across, John M. Bowers' article, 'Tolkien's   
   Goldberry and The Maid of the Moor,' has some interesting perspective   
   linking Goldberry to precisely the kind of generic landscape-type kind   
   of nature, or place, spirit that we are discussing here (and in more   
   length in your longer Tom B. essay).   
      
   > And second, the argument as you've framed it here (especially   
   > without the final sentence) is equally strong against the Maia   
   > theory, and a great many people would bristle at that. (Unlike   
   > Aule, one could imagine a Maia being limited to the region that   
   > was their limited part in the music. But only your final comment   
   > makes room for that loophole.)   
      
   Well, I wasn't really writing for the general public, but for yourself   
   and other learned people here ;-)   
      
   We do know that Maiar accepted limitations that the Valar would not,   
   and even Melian, in /The Book of Lost Tales/ started out as precisely   
   this kind of /genius loci/, a sprite, not of a particular forest, but   
   of forests in general (in /BoLT/ it is clear that all such sprites and   
   place-spirits were among the followers of the Valar), so while I see no   
   problem getting from /genius loci/ to Maia (Melian, as I said, took   
   that route), I can't see any route going from /genius loci/ to Vala.   
      
   > Oh, three reasons, actually: it's not really clear that Bombadil   
   > *is* limited to a specific region in the final form of the story.   
      
   As I see it, that is of no matter. The point is specifically not made   
   about his eventual (IMO imperfect) incorporation into Middle-earth but   
   about his /origin/.  And even then, whatever the conjectural history   
   within Middle-earth, as he is presented in the story he is still very   
   much the same character as in the pre-LotR poem: the Tom Bombadil of   
   the poem would also have seen a decrease of his area as the countryside   
   vanished, just as the Tom Bombadil of /LotR/ appearently has seen a   
   limitation of his roaming area as the great primeval forests   
   diminished.   
      
   > So nailing down whether and in what sense that quote from Letters   
   > still applies is quite tricky. (My nature spirit theory takes a   
   > stab at it, but that is of course quite speculative. And very hard   
   > to apply to the Maia theory.)   
      
   I think we've been down this road before, but in /BoLT/ you have, among   
   the followers of the Valar,   
       a great host who are the sprites of trees and woods, of   
       dale and forest and mountain-side, or those that sing amid   
       the grass at morning and chant among the standing corn at   
       eve. These are the Nermir and the Tavari, Nandini and   
       Orossi, brownies, fays, pixies, leprawns, and what else are   
       they not called, for their number is very great   
   and in this version, the Melian character (here called Gwendeling) is   
   explicitly called a 'fay' and described as a 'sprite that escaped from   
   Lórien's gardens before even Kôr was built'. /BoLT/ isn't /LotR/ and   
   cautions obviously apply, but this nonetheless sets up a very clear   
   precedence of moving from place-spirit to Maia regardless of whether   
   such sprites, brownies, fays, pixies, etc. were still counted among the   
   followers of the Valar (now named the Maiar).   
      
   >> On the other hand, however, I think you are too restrictive in   
   >> the possible interpretations of 'first' and 'eldest'   
   >   
   > Hmm. Are you suggesting that those words are *meaningless*?   
   [...]   
      
   Not meaningless, but certainly less meaningful than you seem to imply   
   -)   
      
   I think you are making a mistake if you take their superlative nature   
   literally -- 'Eldest' merely means 'very, very old' and 'First' merely   
   means 'very, very early'.  It is, to me, far more telling that Tom   
   claims that he was there before the Elves, which would mean that he   
   cannot be a native of Middle-earth (the story of the Dwarves showing   
   that Eru would suffer no natives of Arda to awaken before his Quendi.   
   ).  (Actually, coming to think of it, I suppose one might argue that   
   Tom awoke after the Elves, but before they reached Eriodor on the Great   
   March . . . hmmm . . . Tom is Durin! )   
      
   > Again, though, Tolkien really *hammers* on those descriptions in   
   > Bombadil's case: this isn't a case of a single throwaway line   
   > played up for rhetorical effect!   
      
   That is where I believe you are mistaken. It is, of course, not a   
   /single/, and much less /throwaway/, line, but it is nonetheless played   
   up for rhetorical effect -- this was something that Tolkien was   
   actually quite good at, and it is dangerous to take his superlatives at   
   face value, /even/ when they appear to be hammered in.  They are not   
   meaningless, but they don't denote the very apex, but rather something   
   in the general vicinity fo the apex, narrowing it down not to one, but   
   to a few.   
      
   If you really want to interpret them literally, the only reasonable way   
   is to end up subscribing to the idea that Tom is Eru, since he is the   
   only of whom it can undoubtedly be said that he is 'Eldest' and   
   'First'. Rejecting that, I think you need to reject the idea that they   
   should be interpreted literally -- it will lead you into conjectural   
      
   [continued in next message]   
      
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