XPost: rec.arts.books.tolkien   
   From: steuard@slimy.com   
      
   In message <9qi34cF7g7U1@mid.individual.net>, Geza Giedke   
    wrote:   
   > * One of the most intriguing statements by Bombadil is (imho)   
   > "Tom remembers the first raindrop and the first acorn... he knew the   
   > dark under the stars when it was fearless -- before the Dark Lord came   
   > from Outside."   
   > and I think it is also evidence against the Aule theory.   
      
   If you look in my main essay (rather than this lengthy but minor   
   appendix), I mention that quote as a possible objection to Bombadil as   
   a Maia. (It would also apply as an objection to him as a Vala, but I'd   
   already shot that down sufficiently.) I personally lean toward   
   agreeing with your take on what the quote implies. But in the end, I   
   decided not to include it here (and I might edit it out of future   
   versions of the full essay) because it is a bit more ambiguous than   
   I'd like. Raising this point could lead into all sorts of arguments   
   about which Vala arrived where before which others, and we really   
   don't have any evidence to go on.   
      
   > While I had assumed this to be the case for some time   
   > (Bombadil=Flame Imperishable theory) I now think that the quoted   
   > statement rather indicates that Bombadil is of much lesser stature,   
   > and likely does not know (or care) about the true chain of events as   
   > related in the Ainulindale:   
      
   This seems possible, too. Bombadil may be thinking of specific sorts   
   of "fearless" here, and it's hard to draw strong conclusions without   
   a better sense of what his words meant.   
      
   > * To counter your argument that Bombadil's use of the name "Riverwoman's   
   > Daughter" is evidence that she can't be Yavanna (or, I would say, any   
   > other Maia, since apart from Melian the Maiar did not procreate), one   
   > could suggest, that the two have adopted fake identities and are simply   
   > playing their roles here.   
      
   Fair point! But on some level, if we need to assume that Aule and   
   Yavanna are pretending to be entirely different people for that theory   
   to work, there's no justification for it.   
      
   > * minor typos:   
      
   Thank you! (Why does my spellchecker accept "inconsistant"?   
      
         	   	     		     	      Steuard Jensen   
      
   --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05   
    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)