XPost: rec.arts.books.tolkien   
   From: steuard@slimy.com   
      
   In message , Troels Forchhammer   
    wrote:   
   > Steuard Jensen  spoke these staves:   
      
   >> In message , Troels   
   >> Forchhammer  wrote:   
      
   >>> ...Tom's origin... as the /genius loci/, the 'spirit of the   
   >>> (vanishing) Oxford and Berkshire countryside.'   
      
   >> I agree, but I haven't brought it up in my "anti-essay" for two   
   >> reasons. First, it's blatantly non-canonical as it dates to before   
   >> LotR was written or even imagined (and to the best of my knowledge   
   >> did not at the time relate to Middle-earth at all, regardless of   
   >> the eventual connection).   
      
   > As you know I don't think the idea of 'canon' is useful when applied   
   > in any sense more narrow than 'demonstrably authentic Tolkien   
   > writings' so this doesn't bother me at all ;-)   
      
   We can certainly disagree about the value of a formal concept of   
   "canon" (and I've probably moderated my optimistic views on that score   
   a little bit over the years), but it's hard to imagine that we'd   
   disagree on the underlying point I was trying to make! Just remove my   
   use of the term "canonical" up there, and you're still left with the   
   observation that Tolkien's "Bombadil-as-Berkshire" comment was almost   
   certainly made with no thought of incorporating him into the   
   Silmarillion world. As I said, I still think the comment gives   
   important hints about how Tolkien thought of the character, but there   
   was a *lot* of time (and reason!) for his ideas to evolve between that   
   point and the completion of LotR. I think that when trying to   
   understand the world that Tolkien created in LotR, it's pretty natural   
   to give less weight to this than to comments that Tolkien made about   
   Bombadil after LotR was written.   
      
   This isn't a point of argument, is it?   
      
   > Incidentally, speaking of origins, have you read the article on   
   > Goldberry in /Tolkien Studies/ 8? While not the most impressive source   
   > study that I have come across, John M. Bowers' article, 'Tolkien's   
   > Goldberry and The Maid of the Moor,' has some interesting perspective   
   > linking Goldberry to precisely the kind of generic landscape-type kind   
   > of nature, or place, spirit that we are discussing here (and in more   
   > length in your longer Tom B. essay).   
      
   No, I haven't. I probably ought to, but I fear that I haven't kept up   
   with Tolkien scholarship well at all. There's lots of fascinating   
   stuff there, but so little of what's published is really *my* sort of   
   thing (though as you point out, much of it is relevant in one way or   
   another). I generally occupy an all-too-narrow niche of "careful   
   scholarship that is primarily story internal", which means that most   
   "serious" scholars look down on my interests as childish games and   
   most casual fans either roll their eyes at my pedantry or (in happier   
   cases) gaze in awe at my expertise without really being interested in   
   engaging at the same level. I don't think I've ever found a place   
   other than these groups where my sort of scholarship is both   
   appreciated and common.   
      
   I don't know if I'm griping about "kids these days" or singing the   
   praises of you folks or what. :)   
      
   >> Oh, three reasons, actually: it's not really clear that Bombadil   
   >> *is* limited to a specific region in the final form of the story.   
      
   > As I see it, that is of no matter. The point is specifically not made   
   > about his eventual (IMO imperfect) incorporation into Middle-earth but   
   > about his /origin/.  And even then, whatever the conjectural history   
   > within Middle-earth, as he is presented in the story he is still very   
   > much the same character as in the pre-LotR poem: the Tom Bombadil of   
   > the poem would also have seen a decrease of his area as the countryside   
   > vanished, just as the Tom Bombadil of /LotR/ appearently has seen a   
   > limitation of his roaming area as the great primeval forests   
   > diminished.   
      
   Though I wouldn't be *too* specific about forests in particular.   
   That's certainly the implication of some comments at the Council, but   
   Bombadil himself appears just as comfortable (and just as much Master)   
   on the downs as in the forest. Whatever "his country" may be, it's at   
   least a little bit tricky to define.   
      
   [Side question: Was Bombadil as happy roaming the land that became the   
   Barrow Downs when it was inhabited? He went there enough to know who   
   had worn that brooch, at least, but it's suggested that he still   
   visits the Shire, too. Is the Shire still part of "Tom's country"   
   during the story?]   
      
   >>> On the other hand, however, I think you are too restrictive in   
   >>> the possible interpretations of 'first' and 'eldest'   
      
   >> Hmm. Are you suggesting that those words are *meaningless*?   
      
   > Not meaningless, but certainly less meaningful than you seem to imply   
      
   You've convinced me, and I'm editing the essay to make my treatment of   
   this less specific.   
      
   >> I'll admit that the meaning of "Last" is a huge question mark (and   
   >> I quite suspect that some sort of "rhetorical superlative" is part   
   >> of the explanation), but again, Glorfindel meant *something* by the   
   >> word, just as Tolkien meant *something* when he said Celeborn had   
   >> the "last living memory of the Elder Days". It may not be 100%   
   >> literally correct, but it suggests a relatively small range of   
   >> possible meanings that (I believe) can still teach us something.   
      
   > I left all this in just to be able to say: Precisely!  :-)   
      
   Excellent!   
      
   					Steuard Jensen   
      
   --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05   
    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)