XPost: rec.arts.books.tolkien   
   From: Eruvatar@Arda.com   
      
   "Raven"  wrote in   
   message   
   news:4f570a95$0$56777$edfadb0f@dtext02.news.tele.dk   
      
   > "Eruvatar"  skrev i meddelelsen   
   > news:4f56ddaa$0$493$c3e8da3$4db35a27@news.astraweb.com...   
   >   
   > > In "The Lord Of The Rings" at the end of "The Return of the King"   
   > > Saruman is knifed in the back by Wormtongue.His physical body turns   
   to   
   > > a wisp of smoke and then dissapates never to be seen in Middleearth   
   > > again.But, did he die a mortal death or being one of the Maiar   
   (Which I   
   > > believe he was) did he return toAman in his old form or was he   
   allowed   
   > > to die a naturel(mortal) death due to his base treachery?Just   
   wondering   
   > > if anyone else had input,answers?   
   >   
   >    His fate seems to have been much like that of Sauron.  Of all the   
   beings   
   > in Arda only Men would die and leave Arda altogether, before the Last   
   Day.   
   > All others, even the Valar, had to remain until then whether they   
   willed or   
   > they nilled.   
   >    Death in Tolkien's mythos (as according to his faith also in the   
   real   
   > world) is the severance of body and soul, with the former becoming   
   > inoperational due to trauma or wear and the latter being the essence   
   of the   
   > person.  In the mythos a soul could then be re-bodied, either forming   
   a new   
   > one by its own efforts or by the aid of the Valar.  The former would   
   require   
   > that the soul have a good deal of innate power, some of which would   
   be spent   
   > in the deed.  Dead Elves who heeded the summons of Mandos would   
   experience   
   > the latter, after a 'purgatory' in the Halls of Mandos, the length of   
   which   
   > would depend on how much reflection would be expected of them after   
   whatever   
   > evil deeds they had committed while incarnate.  Fëanor had been so   
   bad that   
   > his stay in purgatory could be expected to last until the Last Day.   
   Finwë's   
   > first wife Míriel is the only Elf we know of who refused becoming   
   > reincarnated.  Her refusal caused Finwë to wish to remarry, much to   
   the   
   > consternation of the Valar who then granted permission on the   
   condition that   
   > Míriel stay dead so that Finwe have not two wives in the world   
   > simultaneously... Glorfindel died nobly, sacrificing himself in   
   battle   
   > against a Balrog to save his companions at the fall of Gondolin.  He   
   was   
   > apparently swiftly re-housed in Aman, and then, at some unspecified   
   time   
   > while there was still traffic from Aman to Middle-earth, he returned   
   to help   
   > fight against evil.  It is not known if he came with the same ship or   
   ships   
   > that carried the Istari.   
   >    Sauron was threatened with death by Lúthien and Huan, and if this   
   threat   
   > had been carried out he would have been forced to return bodyless to   
   > Morgoth, to his master's scorn.  Later he died twice (in Akallabêth   
   and on   
   > the slopes of Orodruin) and twice formed new bodies, each time   
   expending   
   > much of the power that was his from his beginning.  The third time he   
   died,   
   > with the Ring into which he had deposited much of his remaining power   
   being   
   > destroyed in the same event, he was become too powerless to form yet   
   another   
   > body, and was forced to spend the rest of eternity as the spiritual   
   > equivalent of quiet flatulence, nothing more, but still bound to   
   Arda.  And   
   > banned from Aman.  Saruman was from his beginning much weaker than   
   Sauron,   
   > and unable to form a new body even once.  The Balrogs were likewise   
   unable   
   > to re-incarnate, after most of them died in the War of Wrath or   
   before and   
   > apparently the last one on the peak of Zirak-zigil.   
   >    The same thing as with Sauron seems to have happened to Saruman   
   when he   
   > died.  When his throat was slit his body crumbled into a very decayed   
   > corpse.  His spirit, observed for a moment as a rising smoke, turned   
   towards   
   > the West, towards Aman, but he was rejected: a wind from the West   
   dissipated   
   > the smoke, as it had the much larger smoke that marked Sauron's end.   
   He was   
   > not permitted to return, as punishment for his treachery.  So within   
   > Tolkien's conceit that the events in his mythos took place in our   
   real   
   > world, Sauron's and Saruman's spirits are still with us as are those   
   of the   
   > Balrogs, but they are powerless to deal with the world and us.   
   >   
   > Hraban.   
   >   
    I also wondered about Hobbits mortality,but firther reading revealed   
   that they are related to men and so share in mans mortality.So it goes.   
      
   --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05   
    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)