XPost: rec.arts.books.tolkien   
   From: Troels@ThisIsFake.invalid   
      
   In message    
   Stan Brown  spoke these staves:   
   >   
   > On Mon, 12 Mar 2012 20:29:26 -0400, Chris Hoelscher wrote:   
   >>   
      
   Galdor stating that   
       What power still remains lies with us, here in Imladris, or   
       with Círdan at the Havens, or in Lórien.   
      
   >> was the intent of that statement to slyly disclose to the   
   >> "uninitiated" the locations (as he believed) of the 3 rings,   
   >> if the listener at the council was smart enough to pick up   
   >> on it? or was it just a throw-away line?   
   >   
   [...]   
   > I think in context "what power remains" means "whatever power   
   > there may still be, anywhere in Middle-earth, to defy Sauron is in   
   > the Elves of Rivendell, the Havens, and Lórien."   
      
   Yes, I agree.  But I think that Chris' question is still relevant.   
   I'll split it into a number of individual questions that, when taken   
   together, may approach an answer to what Chris, as I perceive it, is   
   asking:   
      
   1 What makes Galdor believe that these three are the only such   
     places?   
   2 Does Galdor, even subconsciously, suspect this distribution of   
     the Three?   
   3 Does Galdor, consciously or subconsciously, wish this to somehow   
     connect to the Three in the minds of the council? (The matter of   
     the Three is raised a little later by Glóin.)   
   4 Does Tolkien wish the reader to somehow connect this to the   
     Three in the mind of the reader?   
      
   As for the first I think that there are perfectly legitimate reasons   
   for any well-travelled Elf to mention these three places in   
   particular -- these are without a doubt the three places of greatest   
   Elvish power at this point in the Third Age.  That the Three Rings   
   have something to do with this (even if Narya no longer resides in   
   Mithlond) doesn't change the fact that the greater wisdom, beauty and   
   sheer power concentrated at these three places would be perceivable   
   even to the most insensible Elf (heck, the power in Lórien is   
   perceivable even to Frodo).   
      
   The second is more tricky, though I frankly think that the answer to   
   'where are the Three Rings kept' must actually have been fairly   
   obvious to any Elf who was around at about TA 800 -- the Elves seems   
   to have shared the author's admiration for /lore/, and if you apply   
   that logic, the Keepers of the Three are actually fairly inevitable.   
   It is likely that most Elves had conditioned themselves not to think   
   about it consciously, but subconsciously I find it difficult to   
   accept that they would not suspect at least as much as did Sauron.   
      
   This leads, then, to the third question -- about the subconscious   
   intentions of Galdor (I reject the possibility of conscious   
   intentions, and I suspect that Galdor would have been horrified had   
   he realized that he may have been giving out a hint to the best kept   
   secret of Third Age Elvendom).  I would expect things to be causally   
   connected, but I would also expect the causality to be more muddied   
   than a simple intention to 'slyly disclose'.  Any of the Eldar   
   present at the council must have known about the Three, and probably   
   knew enough that their inevitably would connect the questions of   
   resisting Sauron, disposing of the Master Ring and the powers of the   
   Three.  He probably didn't at any level /intend/ to disclose   
   anything, but with resistance at the top of his mind, he first   
   thought of the three greatest concentrations of Elvish power, which   
   would be the exact three places that he, subconsciously, suspected   
   were the keeping-places of the Three.   
      
   That leaves the fourth question -- what Tolkien wanted the reader to   
   get out of this.  This question is the one where I am most in doubt   
   -- some readers will certainly claim that these three places were   
   deliberately chosen because they were the natural places for the   
   Three to be kept, whereas others will point out that this is rather   
   like the question of Tolkien's and Wagner's Rings -- both having the   
   same origin, but being otherwise unconnected (I don't think this is   
   entirely true either, but at this point let it stand as an example).   
   What I can say is that /if/ Tolkien had hoped that it would clue in   
   the reader, it didn't work with me -- I never guessed the   
   distribution of the Three, though of course as it was disclosed my   
   reaction was inevatably 'of course' and never one of surprise.   
      
   > As the story shows later, he is incorrect to leave the Dúnedain,   
   > Rohan, Gondor, and some Hobbits out of his list.   
      
   And this, which is a typical example of the Elf-centric perspective   
   of the Elves, may have been the more conscious reason for the line --   
   to show also some of the limitations of the Elves, as well as   
   providing a counterpoint to Boromir's view of Gondor as the only   
   thing standing between Sauron and his desire for world-domination.   
      
   >> actually - the second question is from Many Meetings - when   
   >> Galdalf says " There is a power, too, of another kind in the   
   >> Shire"  - what has he referring to? the seemingly inherent   
   >> resistance to evil in the Hobbits themselves? or some physical   
   >> object? not the ring, it is not in the Shire ??   
   >   
   > I think he is referring to the Hobbits' "toughness".  Frodo and   
   > Sam are extreme cases, but in numerous places in /The Hobbit/ and   
   > /The LotR/ Gandalf or the narrator refers in different words to   
   > Hobbits' powers of resistance to evil and courage "in a tight   
   > place".   
      
   Yes, the context is certainly one implying powers for resistance and   
   resilience.  I am not sure whether we have ever tried to discuss the   
   nature of this resilience of the Hobbits, but it seems to me that it   
   is not unlike that of the Dwarves (albeit not quite as strong) -- a   
   natural resistance to any kind of domination, except perhaps by the   
   their own inner social inertia and cultural myopia.  I quite think   
   that it is these forces, including the social and cultural powers   
   that would also make the Hobbits keep the laws of free will, 'because   
   they were The Rules (as they said), both ancient and just,' are   
   precisely what Gandalf is referring to -- the powers that would make   
   the Shire just a bit more difficult to really conquer than much of   
   the surrounding land.   
      
   --   
   Troels Forchhammer   
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