XPost: rec.arts.books.tolkien
From: jon.lennart.beck.its.my.name@mail.its.in.danmark
"Michael Graf" skrev i meddelelsen
news:jkfi16$jog$1@dont-email.me...
> Am 21.03.2012 11:42, schrieb Raven:
>> Most likely because he knew that the Valar had given up meddling
>> directly in the affairs of Middle-earth. His own order, Heren Istarion,
>> were the Valar's last ditch effort against Sauron, and he must have
>> known that. Just as Sauron believed, as directly stated by Tolkien,
>> that Eru and the Valar had quite given up Middle-earth
> Mmmh, could you cite a source? I can remember the Valar giving up
> guardianship over Arda (not only ME, downfall of Numenor), and indeed I
> always had the feeling that Men had been the unloved "foster-children"
> of the Lords of the West. But Eru/Illuvatar? He brought Gandalf back to
> live to fulfill his quest (in a way, at least) and extended his "magical
> power", and so directly interfered in favour of Sauron's opponents. I
> somehow thought that Men turned more directly to Illuvatar than to his
> "stewards", the Valar. He definitely had been utterly angry about what
> the Numenorians did in their last days, but also Men didn't have that
> easy start in existence in comparison to the Elves.
The OP wonders how Saruman could dare his treachery, but the question
how Sauron dared his is at least equally pertinent. Sauron had witnessed
the might and majesty of the Valar on two occasions: during the war against
Utumno and the War of Wrath, and that of Ilúvatar once: the Akallabęth.
I did not mean to imply that Eru had abandoned the Mortal Lands, but that
Sauron (and probably Saruman) believed so, or else avoided thinking about
Eru altogether - like a Bilbo ceasing to take a live dragon next door into
consideration. The "as directly stated by Tolkien" bit refers to the
sentence fragment preceding, not following, it.
It is explicitly stated, though I have forgotten where, that Sauron
genuinely believed that Eru and the Valar had lost interest in Middle-earth.
He therefore believed that he could do what he liked with it to the extent
that his power within Middle-earth permitted it, forever. He even seems to
have conceited himself that he was become, effectively, Morgoth. It may be
surmised that Saruman also believed that Eru had lost interest. This
despite the fact that both must have personally known their Maker in the
deeps of time, or before Time and History began, and must also have known
that one day Time would end.
We know that human beings may fall into delusions counter to the physical
evidence around them and to historical memories. Many tyrants and
self-appointed prophets fall into that trap, from the likes of Stalin and
Hitler to the mean little souls who covet children to dominate and rape, and
become convinced that God wants them to kidnap one for the purpose. Angelic
spirits with far greater wisdom and clarity might be less vulnerable to such
self-delusions; but they certainly have more time allotted them to yield to
them. Tolkien states that when angelic spirits of great wisdom do fall into
evil they do so much more thoroughly than we do. Wit and understanding on a
greater level must be overcome by unwit and misdirected passion on a greater
level.
As for the Valar and Men, Tolkien states that the Valar yearned for all
the Eruhini that they had only glimpsed in Eru's theme in the primeval
Music, and loved them when they did appear - as younger and smaller brethren
to be cared for as much as children to be instructed. Men were not the
unloved "foster-children" of the Valar, though the contact between the Valar
and Men was indubitably far more tenuous than that between the Valar and
Elves.
Rabe.
--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)
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