XPost: rec.arts.books.tolkien   
   From: Troels@ThisIsFake.invalid   
      
   In message    
   Michael Graf  spoke these staves:   
   >   
   > Am 21.03.2012 11:42, schrieb Raven:   
   >>   
   >> "Eruvatar"  skrev i meddelelsen   
   >> news:4f69021f$0$2076$c3e8da3$9f400e27@news.astraweb.com...   
   >>>   
   >>> As Saruman was of the Maia and had obviously seen the power of   
   >>> Eru and the Valar, why did he not fear their reactions to his   
   >>> base treachery of his mission to aid others to resist Sauron.   
      
   That would require that he did see his own actions as a 'base   
   treachery' against the mission he was given, and I am not entirely   
   convinced that he saw it that way.  In many ways I think Saruman fell   
   into the same trap as did Sauron -- starting out wanting /good/ to   
   happen to Middle-earth, they became fixed on their own personal   
   interpretation of 'good', and wanted to implement that particular   
   vision of 'the greatest good for the greatest number of people'   
   regardless of whether others would disagree.  In that desire lies the   
   seeds for their lust for domination (forcing their vision upon all   
   others) and the power to force through their vision.  Saruman would   
   have argued that he had, as the only one, actually stayed true to the   
   mission, and was working to ensure universal peace and prosperity in   
   Middle-earth (and who gives a bother about freedom, anyway?)   
      
   >>> I can understand him wanting to keep Sauron from getting back   
   >>> the ring of power but not to use it to replace him. Just seems   
   >>> that he would have been afraid of the consequences of his   
   >>> actions.   
   >>   
   >> Most likely because he knew that the Valar had given up meddling   
   >> directly in the affairs of Middle-earth.  His own order, Heren   
   >> Istarion, were the Valar's last ditch effort against Sauron, and   
   >> he must have known that.  Just as Sauron believed, as directly   
   >> stated by Tolkien, that Eru and the Valar had quite given up   
   >> Middle-earth   
      
   Yes, this is the other aspect of it. Saruman would, better than any   
   other, have known that he was 'on his own' and thus left to his own   
   devices in Middle-earth. Yes, the Wizards were directed not to   
   dominate the inhabitants of Middle-earth in any way (fear, awe,   
   worship or whatever), but the Valar weren't there, were they? The   
   Valar just didn't know the situation in Middle-earth, did they? And   
   they had no intention of interfering ever again, anyway, had they?   
   And surely they'd understand that Saruman had no other options, if   
   only they could see what the situation in Middle-earth was /really/   
   like, wouldn't they?   
      
   > Mmmh, could you cite a source? I can remember the Valar giving up   
   > guardianship over Arda (not only ME, downfall of Numenor),   
      
   In actual fact, that was a very temporary thing, and only lasted   
   while Eru punished the Númenóreans.  The Valar had, however, become   
   very careful about interfering in Middle-earth (after failing   
   miserably a couple of times) and in particular with the Eruhíni.  The   
   Wizards were their only strategy in the Third Age, and it is likely   
   that Saruman had been told that there would be no help (or, as he   
   might later have viewed it, 'interference') from Valinor under any   
   circumstances.   
      
   Theres is a text in 'Myths Transformed' (part 5 of /Morgoth's Ring/ -   
   /HoMe 10/) that contains several passages that pertain to this   
   discussion, Text VII 'Notes on motives in The Silmarillion' (where   
   many of the motives discussed are actually referring to /The Lord of   
   the Rings/ since the Istari do not exist as such in the formal   
   /Quenta Silmarillion/).   
      
   In section (i)   
       it had been [Sauron's] virtue (and therefore also the cause   
       of his fall, and of his relapse) that he loved order and   
       co-ordination, and disliked all confusion and wasteful   
       friction.(It was the apparent will and power of Melkor to   
       effect his designs quickly and masterfully that had first   
       attracted Sauron to him.) Sauron had, in fact, been very   
       like Saruman, and so still understood him quickly and could   
       guess what he would be likely to think and do, even without   
       the aid of /palantiri/ or of spies   
      [...]   
       But like all minds of this cast, Sauron's love (originally)   
       or (later) mere understanding of other individual   
       intelligences was correspondingly weaker; and though the   
       only real good in, or rational motive for, all this   
       ordering and planning and organization was the good of all   
       inhabitants of Arda (even admitting Sauron's right to be   
       their supreme lord), his 'plans', the idea coming from his   
       own isolated mind, became the sole object of his will, and   
       an end, the End, in itself. [*]   
     [...]   
       Sauron could not, of course, be a 'sincere' atheist. Though   
       one of the minor spirits created before the world, he knew   
       Eru, according to his measure. He probably deluded himself   
       with the notion that the Valar (including Melkor) having   
       failed, Eru had simply abandoned Eä, or at any rate Arda,   
       and would not concern himself with it any more. It would   
       appear that he interpreted the 'change of the world' at the   
       Downfall of Númenor, when Aman was removed from the   
       physical world, in this sense: Valar (and Elves) were   
       removed from effective control, and Men under God's curse   
       and wrath.   
      [...]   
       [Sauron's] cynicism, which (sincerely) regarded the motives   
       of Manwë as precisely the same as his own, seemed fully   
       justified in Saruman. Gandalf he did not understand. But   
       certainly he had already become evil, and therefore stupid,   
       enough to imagine that his different behaviour was due   
       simply to weaker intelligence and lack of firm masterful   
       purpose.   
      
    [*] [Footnote to the text] But his capability of corrupting   
       other minds, and even engaging their service, was a residue   
       from the fact that his original desire for 'order' had   
       really envisaged the good estate specially physical well-   
       being) of his 'subjects'   
      
   and in section (iii):   
         The Valar 'fade' and become more impotent, precisely in   
       proportion as the shape and constitution of things becomes   
       more defined and settled. The longer the Past, the more   
       nearly defined the Future, and the less room for important   
       change (untrammelled action, on a physical plane, that is   
       not destructive in purpose). The Past, once 'achieved', has   
       become part of the 'Music in being'. Only Eru may or can   
       alter the 'Music'. The last major effort, of this demiurgic   
       kind, made by the Valar was the lifting up of the range of   
       the Pelori to a great height. It is possible to view this   
       as, if not an actually bad action, at least as a mistaken   
       one. Ulmo disapproved of it.   
      
      
   [continued in next message]   
      
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    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)