XPost: rec.arts.books.tolkien   
   From: joedoe3@gmail.com   
      
   Stan Brown schrieb am 04/27/2012 01:27 PM:   
   > On Thu, 26 Apr 2012 14:03:50 +0200, Geza Giedke wrote:   
   >> in Arda, some beauty must be bought with evil...   
   >>   
   >>   
   >> Feanor: "[...] and this doom I add: the deeds that we shall do shall be   
   >> the matter of song until the last days of Arda." (Silm, ch 9 "Of the   
   >> Flight of the Noldor")   
   >   
   > Oh dear, no!   
   >   
   > Fëanor's statement was "A implies B" -- some evils can nonetheless   
   > result in beauty.   
      
   you're right concerning Feanor's statement; but Manwe's was "for the   
   price could be no other"   
      
   > While Fëanor's statement was at least partly self serving, it was   
   > optimistic. Yours is different and is pessimistic.   
      
   ack, but it's not my take but Tolkien's, I think. It was (to me) one of   
   the more striking ideas of Silm, (explained also before in a brief   
   conversation of Eru, Manwe and Ulmo) that evil is justified by the   
   beauty it (can) create. The theme is also touched on by Sam in   
   discussion with Frodo about "good tales" (where inside and outside view   
   of what is "good" may differ a lot).   
      
   Although it seems to me like one of the better attempts at theodicy, I'm   
   not convinced: I find it morally hard to justify a Creator who lets his   
   creatures suffer just for the sake of beauty. If for the sake of his own   
   enjoyment, the moral case is clear; if for the sake of the creatures   
   enjoyment, one might ask: why not instill them with a different sense of   
   beauty, where it can be achieved without evil?   
      
   regards   
    Geza   
      
      
   --   
                               Now come ye all,   
   who have courage and hope!  My call harken   
   to flight, to freedom       in far places!   
                                         Lays of Beleriand   
      
   --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05   
    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)