XPost: rec.arts.books.tolkien   
   From: joedoe3@gmail.com   
      
   Stan Brown schrieb am 04/28/2012 01:32 PM:   
   > On Fri, 27 Apr 2012 20:39:40 +0200, Geza Giedke wrote:   
   >>  It was (to me) one of   
   >> the more striking ideas of Silm, (explained also before in a brief   
   >> conversation of Eru, Manwe and Ulmo) that evil is justified by the   
   >> beauty it (can) create.   
   >   
   > I don't recall any such statement, or anything that can be   
   > interpreted that way.  Could you maybe post a specific pointer?   
      
   I was thinking of the following quote from the Valaquenta:   
      
   "And Iluvatar spoke to Ulmo, and said: 'Seest thou not how here in this   
   little realm in the Deeps of Time Melkor hath made war upon thy   
   province? He hath bethought him of bitter cold immoderate, and yet hath   
   not destroyed the beauty of thy fountains, nor of my clear pools. Behold   
   the snow, and the cunning work of frost! Melkor hath devised heats and   
   fire without restraint, and hath not dried up thy desire nor utterly   
   quelled the music of the sea. Behold rather  the height and glory of the   
   clouds, and the everchanging mists; and listen to the fall of rain upon   
   the Earth! And in these clouds thou art drawn nearer to Manwe, thy   
   friend, whom thou lovest.'   
      
   Then Ulmo answered: 'Truly, Water is become now fairer than my heart   
   imagined, neither had my secret thought conceived the snowflake, nor in   
   all my music was contained the falling of the rain. I will seek Manwe,   
   that he and I may make melodies for ever to my delight!' And Manwe and   
   Ulmo have from the beginning been allied, and in all things have served   
   most faithfully the purpose of Iluvatar."   
      
      
   I would also read the following as supporting the "evil as a source of   
   beauty" reading:   
      
   "And it seemed at last that there were two musics progressing at one   
   time before the seat of Iluvatar, and they were utterly at variance. The   
   one was deep and wide and beautiful, but slow and blended with an   
   immeasurable sorrow, from which its beauty chiefly came. [...]"   
      
   since the cause of sorrow more often than not was evil.   
      
      
   > I remember that Eru says he can make good out of Melkor's marring of   
   > Arda, but that's not the same as saying that the ultimate good   
   > justifies the marring, or that the ultimate result is better than   
   > Arda would have been without Melkor's marring.   
      
   fair enough, but if Eru is simply repairing/reacting to Melkor#s marring   
   of Arda, that would give Melkor independent power, whereas Eru states:   
      
   "Then Iluvatar spoke, and he said: 'Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest   
   among them is Melkor; but that he may know, and all the Ainur, that I am   
   Iluvatar, those things that ye have sung, I will show them forth, that   
   ye may see what ye have done. And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme   
   may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any   
   alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove   
   but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he   
   himself hath not imagined.'"   
      
   This last sentece I read as "whatever hateful deeds you do, Melkor, they   
   are just my way to bring more beauty about". Thus if Eru is the   
   "uttermost source" of Melkor's evil ways and supposing that Eru is not   
   evil himself, there must be a more than balancing good, and the only one   
   alluded to repeatedly throughout Silm is the beauty conceived due to   
   suffering, sorrow, violence -- Melkor's (so-called) "marring" of Arda.   
   (Since if the above argument holds, Arda Unmarred might be a dull place.)   
      
   regards   
    Geza   
      
      
      
   --   
                               Now come ye all,   
   who have courage and hope!  My call harken   
   to flight, to freedom       in far places!   
                                         Lays of Beleriand   
      
   --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05   
    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)