XPost: rec.arts.books.tolkien
From: Troels@ThisIsFake.invalid
In message
Lewis spoke these staves:
>
> In message
> Troels Forchhammer wrote:
>>
>> Saruman was definitely very different from all other of the Wise.
>> He alone ever sought to actually find and seize the Ring for
>> himself, and this he had begun long before he tried to use the
>> palantír and indeed before TA2851.
>
> My only objection to the way the film handles this is that Gandalf
> has no knowledge of Saruman's corruption at this point, and
> showing him as if he did no trust Saruman during the events of The
> Hobbit makes him seeking Saruman's advice during The Lord of the
> Rings foolish.
To be entirely fair, there is some justification for this in
/Unfinished Tales/ (to which the Tolkien Estate of course retains all
rights -- and are unlikely to unlock anything for Jackson).
Though the information on the rivalry between Gandalf and Saruman is
not entirely consistent throughout the various versions, Gandalf is
fairly consistently portrayed as reluctant to trust Saruman entirely
-- it would (in most versions) be going much too far to say that
Gandalf doubted Saruman or was suspicious about him -- it is just
that something held him back from being entirely honest. Also
Gandalf did not laugh again; and he did not answer, but
looking keenly at Saruman he drew on his pipe and sent out
a great ring of smoke with many smaller rings that followed
it. Then he put up his hand, as if to grasp them, and they
vanished. With that he got up and left Saruman without
another word; but Saruman stood for some time silent, and
his face was dark with doubt and displeasure.
This story appears in half a dozen different manuscripts,
and in one of them it is said that Saruman was suspicious,
/Unfinished Tales/, Part three, chapter IV 'The Hunt for the Ring'
(iii) 'Concerning Gandalf, Saruman and the Shire'
In a struck-out version of this story, Gandalf's purpose is
explained:
It was a strange chance, that being angered by his
insolence Gandalf chose this way of showing to Saruman his
suspicion that desire to possess them had begun to enter
into his policies and his study of the lore of the Rings;
and of warning him that they would elude him. For it cannot
be doubted that Gandalf had as yet no thought that the
Halflings (and still less their smoking) had any connection
with the Rings. (ibid.)
However, as stated above, I do not think that Gandalf was quite this
suspicious of Saruman, and I suspect that this was the reason for
striking out this version. Christopher Tolkien comments on this
story, saying
The foregoing story shows that Gandalf himself suspected
Saruman of this at the time of the Council of 2851; though
my father afterwards commented that it appears from
Gandalf's story to the Council of Elrond of his meeting
with Radagast that he did not seriously suspect Saruman of
treachery (or of desiring the Ring for himself) until he
was imprisoned in Orthanc.
In general the evidence of the films and interviews with the writers
of the screen-play (that is, I don't really know about del Toro?)
suggests that they do not know /Unfinished Tales/ -- Phillipa Boyens
has stated that she has not read /The Silmarillion/ for the last 25
years in order not to accidentally use anything from that book, and
the same would by implication apply to /UT/ and any other book to
which they do not have the rights. And Boyens is by all accounts the
only one who has read /The Silmarillion/.
But, in any case, there is some justification for Gandalf's
suspicions, though the film-makers are unlikely to have known this
-)
--
Troels Forchhammer
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Giving in is no defeat.
Passing on is no retreat.
Selves are made to rise above.
You shall live in what you love.
- Piet Hein, /The Me Above the Me/
--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)
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