XPost: rec.arts.books.tolkien   
   From: g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies   
      
   In message    
     Sandman  wrote:   
   > In article ,   
   >  Lewis  wrote:   
      
   >> >> > Only, that was not something done by the ring. He lusted for power in   
   >> >> > the same way most people would. The ring for him was a means for that   
   >> >> > power. I am trying to make a distinction between Sarumen being   
   >> >> > "corrupted" simply by wanting to have more power, and "corrupted" as   
   >> >> > an active force by the ring, which incidentally doesn't actually seem   
   >> >> > to exercise a force to make you want to use it for world dominantion   
   >> >> > (in spite of what Tolkien himself says).   
   >> >>   
   >> >> I disagree. The Ring, inasmuch as it was possible, was searching for a   
   >> >> power able and willing to wield it. That is not to say that it was   
   >> >> active in its search;lets think of it, perhaps, as a force like gravity,   
   >> >> bending the world around it so that things fall toward it. Saruman fell.   
   >>   
   >> > Gandalf explicitly states that the ring wanted to be found and wanted   
   >> > to get back to its master, not that it sought someone powerful to   
   >> > wield it.   
   >>   
   >> "Wield" was wrong, it was seeking its master.   
      
   > Exactly - not just anyone more powerful than the current user.   
      
   >> > There is nothing in the books that suggest that the will of the ring   
   >> > had any remote effect at all upon Saruman. The corruption of Saruman   
   >> > was solely the inherit corruption in himself - i.e. lust for power.   
   >> > The ring was a means for that lust, not a source of it.   
   >>   
   >> I'm not sure there is any evidence that the Ring had a will. Yes,   
   >> Gandalf speaks of the ring 'wanting' but that seems to me simply a word   
   >> that is used because the word that is needed doesn't exist. I don't   
   >> think the Ring had a will, other than an inherent tendency to happen   
   >> into the paths that might lead it back to Sauron. I think ascribing an   
   >> intelligence or even agency to the Ring is a mistake.   
      
   > The will of the ring is what makes it fall off Isildurs finger. I   
   > think the "other than" part of the above paragraph most certainly is a   
   > will of its own. Or the will of its master if you will. Whether the   
   > ring was *sentient* is another story, and I don't think "will"   
   > necessarily leads to sentience. There are many items in Middle Earth   
   > that seemingly has a will of its own   
      
   >> Why did Bilbo find the ring? Because Bilbo was going to take it out into   
   >> the world. Did the ring do something specific to be found? No, but some   
   >> power draw the ring to be lost where Bilbo would find it.   
      
   > That doesn't make sense. Gollum losing the ring to be found by Bilbo   
   > is either a huge coincidence or the will of the ring. Gollum had 500   
   > years to lose the ring, yet lost it just a few hours before Bilbo   
   > found it.   
      
   There was no one to lose the ring TO in those 500 years. Bilbo was the   
   first to come along that would roll the ring back out into the world at   
   large. Also, by this time Sauron is reclaiming his powers.   
      
   But I still think 'will' as you are using it is wrong. The ring didn't   
   sit back and muse, "Well, here's a likely fellow, let's slip off into   
   this likely spot where we will be found so I get get back to Barad-Dûr."   
   I think of it more as a weight, being drawn downhill. Bilbo's doesn't   
   find the ring because the ring wills it, there in the dark, he finds it   
   because his hand is naturally drawn to it just because it is there.   
      
   >> That's why I described it as something more like gravity. Or simply   
   >> that it was attracted to the power of Sauron, and as his power grew   
   >> so did the affinity the Ring had to seek that power. This is why,   
   >> after all, Bilbo and Frodo kept the Ring on a chain, is it not?   
      
   > Was it not because otherwise they would be invisible all the time? I   
   > mean, on a chain seems like a logical safe place...   
      
   No, it was because it slipped out of pockets and off fingers, as I recall.   
      
   >> Still, I liken it to a marble on a tilting table more than to any will   
   >> or intelligence on the part of the Ring. Magnets. That's it, lots of   
   >> magnets.   
      
   > It seems this marble has the power to tilt the table in its favor,   
   > though. :)   
      
   And I think that's right where we disagree.   
      
      
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   All I know is that using the strap makes me feel like a hot woman in   
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