XPost: rec.arts.books.tolkien   
   From: Troels@ThisIsFake.invalid   
      
   In message    
   Stan Brown  spoke these staves:   
   >   
   > On Mon, 07 Jan 2013 09:52:37 +0100, Troels Forchhammer wrote:   
   >>   
   >> Quite clearly being allowed to take up residence in Orthanc did   
   >> /not/ transfer deputed authority to Saruman to use the   
   >> Orthanc-stone.   
   >   
   > Troels, I can't agree with you on this one.   
   >   
   > "Here are the keys. Live here as my warden, but touch not the   
   > Stone."  I don't think so.  Tolkien was explicit that Beren the   
   > Steward either didn't think about the Stone or considered Saruman   
   > a good guardian for it.  Either way, Saruman had right to use it,   
   > derived from the Steward acting with the authority of the Kings.   
      
   The problem with such an interpretation is, however, that it is   
   against Tolkien's very explicit statement that Saruman "had himself   
   no /right/ to the Orthanc-stone" (note 14 to the UT essay, emphasis   
   original).   
      
   If you wish to say that it would make better sense if Beren's actions   
   had also deputed to Saruman /some/ level of right to the Stone, I'd   
   agree, but that is not what Tolkien says. I assume that Tolkien, when   
   writing the /palantíri/ essay had a fairly good idea of how he wanted   
   this to work, and that this is reflected in the essay, and so I see   
   the task as finding an interpretation that fits the text -- the whole   
   text.   
      
   The essay speaks quite specifically about deputing authority to use a   
   Stone and there is hint of Saruman being deputed such authority --   
   even if Beren did think of the Stone, being a guardian is a far cry   
   from being a rightful user. Since Tolkien also says that Saruman had   
   no such right for himself, the conclusion that I can come to is that   
   the deputing of the right or authority to use the Stone for seeing   
   and communicating must be explicitly deputed and is not implied by   
   any rights to the Stone's place of keeping. I'd certainly agree that   
   this would not be my default assumption, but it is the idea that I   
   can bring in concert with the text.   
      
   If you have another way to interpret the text that is consistent with   
   Tolkien's statement in note 14, I'd be happy to learn about it, but   
   saying that Saruman had some right when Tolkien says he had none is   
   not so consistent.   
      
   --   
   Troels Forchhammer   
   Valid e-mail is    
   Please put [AFT], [RABT] or 'Tolkien' in subject.   
      
         Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable   
       from magic.   
      - Arthur C. Clarke, /Profiles of The Future/, 1961   
      (Also known as 'Clarke's third law')   
      
   --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05   
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